i''ve been thinking about this topic mostly because of an ongoing argument on the Morrowind boards. For those who aren''t aware, Morrowind''s an RPG by Bethesda, the sequel to Arena and Daggerfall. Now Daggerfall gave you the interesting ability to take the clothes off your character in the item screen, leading to lots of fun staring at pixelated dark elf breasts. Also there were various naked women standing around in towns for no apparent reason. In Morrowind, they decided there would be no nudity. Many people are outraegd, claiming that Morrowind is now aiming to please the kiddies, and not the "mature" audience that daggerfall was allegedly aiming for with its gratuitous elf porn. Now, in my opinion, I see their decision of no nudity as being MORE mature. I admit, back when i was 14, nudity seemed very adult at the time, probably because it was always behind labels that said "Adults only". But i feel that games that are filled with nudity or almost-nudity *cough* *cough* *Everquest* *cough* are really just pandering to the hormonal teenagers. The romances in the Black Isle games (Baldur''s Gate 2, Planescape...) seemed much more mature to me, and were actually enjoyable, as opposed to the random scantily clad girls in most games, which mostly make me feel like everyone was right when they said video games are for kids. Also, in my life, I generally try to uphold such Chaotic Good beliefs as feminism and gay rights; but games sometimes seem to be developed by a horde of homophobic chauvinists. Then again, I suppose most of the suburban teenage male population is a horde of homophobic chauvinists, and developers are just catering to their audience. I for one, know a lot of gamers that would have a fatal heart attack if they found out their battle-hardened space marine was going around kissing boys, though I myself would be thrilled to see something like that in a game. Back on the Morrowind boards, with the nudity issue, there was also the general consensus that it was only really important that attractive naked women be in the game, as "no one wants to see naked guys". Also in games that have had nudity, the female form is generally pretty anatomically correct (well except for the fact that they''re always shaped like barbie dolls), while the male form generally has a suspicious blurry looking splotch between his legs. Now, I''m not saying we should all release games with lots of naked guys running around, I''m just trying to make a point that nudity in games isn''t actually there for "realism" or "artistic reasons" as some people want to believe, it''s really just some naked chicks to keep the teenage boys interested. So, ideas? Can nudity and sex be included tastefully, perhaps even artistically, into a game? Should we, as designers, even try, or should we not bother including it at all? Or maybe just put some porn in to help the game sell (not an option for me persnoally) ? Would gamers in general even play Killfest 6000 if the main character was acting suspiciously gay during the opening sequence? By the way, I''ve noticed that some games do in fact have lesbians, as i guess they''re more accepted by the gaming audience than gay boys. Still, most of the portrayal of such is still very porn oriented, except for the great lesbian couple in The Longest Journey, which is one of the only games that I felt actually had viable female characters in it. Well, could this post be any longer?

I think if its being used in an atrisitc or mature way it would be fine. I wouldnt want to be playing Zelda, and walk into someones house and see a bed bouncing up and down. That wouldnt seem very good. But if in Baldurs Gate i walked into an Inn, and the room had exposed person lying on a couch and an artist was painting a picture, I would see nothing wrong. I would think, if there were to be nudity, it should have a good purpose. Or at least, be very well generated . example being lara croft.I think that entire game idea wasnt all that great, but everyone still plays it... hmm, i wonder why? Its all depending on how you use it.
Bad example here:

Zelda:Where is the unkown one?
Elder: At the top of the mountain, hes always in his house.
(zelda goes up a mountain, 3 hours of ameplay)
(bed is shaking, and elders not there)
Elders Wife: Oh dear, I am so sorry, I didnt know there was going to be company.
Zelda: Is that your husband
Elders Wife: No i am cheating on him.

I find no point to something like that, but as I said with the artist thing, its ok.

"I''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''Urden

Edited by - Drizzt DoUrden on August 25, 2001 1:02:33 AM

This is one of those discussion topics that pops up like a dandelion every few months. For the record, I''ll restate my opinions:
-porn and/or sexual realism in games can be a good thing, but it has to be gender-balanced.
-whenever I make up a game design it ends up having gay/bi/trans/whatever characters in it, probably because I''m bi.

Here´s my thoughts:

Preferences:

If you play games (read a book, watch a film) you need a character to relate to, a character to identify with. Now if you look at the gamers (young heterosexual males) its pretty clear that a game has to appeal to this group (otherwise it don´t sell). This you can either do by making the hero a big badass who gets all the babes (=is one hell of a strong/mean/all-powerful mutha and could if he wanted), or to make the hero a babe (heroine in that case) cause young heterosexual males like to look at boobs and asses.
Now you might call me shallow, but for 90% of the market that´s how it is. I, being within the target audience can confirm that. I like hero-type characters (although i prefer them a bit more sophisticated, at least i´d like to believe that) and i like to look at boobs and ass.
Shallow? Sounds like it. But i guess thats how it is.

THis does not mean that I want every game to be like this, quite the opposite. I´d love to see a gay Duke Nukem or a lesbian Lara. And I like stories with depth, like the mentioned BG2 (although it didn´t strike me as *that* good).
(And somehow i never got that far in "The longest Journey", the stupid underwater puzzle scared me off...)


Nudity:

Yes please. I have no problem with nudity in games, as long as its not purely just for the sake of having a nude around. So far i havent encountered any nudity which i have found totally inappropriate. Please note the "totally", the scantily clad amazons in the average rpg are bothersome though, especially when they´re going into battle with a g-string and a stainless steel bra.
I guess you could put it like that: sacrifice realism for gameplay, but not for nudity.
If it fits the game, its ok. If its in the game just for the sake of itself and still fits, its ok (im thinkin Duke Nukem again). If a game HAS to have nudity, just for the sake of pleasing the audience, why not make it more direct (talking rpgs again now)? If Daggerfall´s audience wants elf porn, just include elf porn paintings in the game. THen every player can go to the shop and buy some elf (dwarf/orc/whatever) porn he wants. With that the subject of naked elves(dwarves/whatever) is out of the way and you can focus on the game itself again ,because the ability to take all clothes of might be fun if you intend to go flashing, but will probably have no relevance on the story... if it does, by all means. Be naked. I could imagine a player character getting severely drunk/robbed/whatever and has to find his way home without his clothes on (what? you have NEVER woken up with no clothes on and no memory of how you lost them??). The characters braveness would then influence the places he/she could go to...

But then again, not much games overuse nudity anyways, as its just too dangerous ground to tread. In Europe it doesnt seem to be a problem, but you´re going to run into trouble in the US if you have just the proverbial tit sticking out.


Sex:

Yes please. This is even more dangerous ground than nudity, thats why i think few games risk it. It is slowly getting more (BG2 again, for instance, also Fallout 1+2), but i think that in general the gaming markets (even in Europe) are not ready for anything even remotely graphic.



Sunandshadow:
from my personal point of view i agree, but as a gamedesigner i have to disagree. Balance yes, but in relation to the customers. Which are mostly male. And you just cant afford to scare off thoes homophobic male teens.... But you don´t want to scare off the few girls who might have stumbled upon your game either, that´s why you´re probably going to have to go the safe way and show a few hot chicks, with at least some clothes on, and maybe some hot guys, but never with less than Conan wore, and never more erotic than Conan on a sunny day (so those homophobes can always think that it´s just a barbarian thing that has nothing to do with sex).


Drizzt:
IMO it doesnt always have to be art (not sure if this was your point). Nudity just for itself is ok sometimes, "mature" does not mean that there is no nudity just for the fun of it. In a good rpg i expect Barmaids to wear less (as they usually do in real life), i expect strippers and go-go girls at the appropriate places. But if you look at the Fallout series (which had more or less all of the above and more, although not so graphic) it was done nicely, without ever seeming "immature".

I think including any of this stuff to be a bad idea because you are really limiting your audience. Young children really shouldn''t be exposed to this stuff (and even if they should their parents won''t think so). Little kids are a bigger part of the playing population than statistics indicate, because they''ll play their brother''s or father''s games. Also who is to say that gay people aren''t already in games? Maybe one of the characters in Counter-Strike is gay, maybe Kain from FF2 was gay. How would you know? It is dumb to make a big deal out of something, so unless the game is about sex it makes no sense for it to come up.

staring at actual porno seems stupid enough, but having it in a game?? i mean come on, how pathetic is that!??! "hehehe, oh yeah, my elf is making out with your halfling... hehehe" get a life people!
~~KaMiKaZ~~

EDIT: dam n, chose the wrong smiley

Edited by - KaMiKaZ on August 31, 2001 9:30:02 AM

Lol. Ok. Remember Duke Nukem:Time to kill? It had strippers and everything. What kind of audience did it attract?

Middle school/high school students

Tomb Raider:

Be serios, nobody plays the game because the story line was good. LOOK AT THE MOVIE. Nobody would have watched to movie if there wasnt a sexual scene.


I personally think both of those games sucked. But theres not many people who would agree with me.

I think there should be a reason behind the nudity/sex because I really don''t want to see 2 animated people having sex on the floor when I walk into thier house to steal all of thier money. I think if its a love story, a sex scene would be good, because no other games with a love story have had a scene like that.(except maybe xeno gears, but I dont remember).

So, if it has a reason AND/OR makes the game seem more realistic, then fine.

"I''''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''''Urden

I disagree (on some accounts). Why do you always have to justify anything remotely sexual, either by calling it a love story or by calling it art?

all in all, to sum it up:

"So, if it has a reason AND/OR makes the game seem more realistic, then fine. "

i´d stress the OR, because (just as an example) in an rpg whose main goal is presenting a realistic and believable world, porn would not have a reason as such, but definitely make the world more credible... if you take the "Shadowrun" environment for example, dont you think that people who have no moral objections to replacing half their bodies with machine parts and shooting other people for money would have any second thoughts about having porn in their house? So, if i ever see a Shadowrun rpg, I want to have the option of buying some class A human/elf/orc/troll nudie mag, not because I want to, or would, but because the option should be there.

BTW: can anyone remember that cool action/adventure from waaay back... Dreamweb. Top-down view, adventure mostly... extremely gloomy setting, and you play some sort of poor sod who has to kill members of some conspiracy or other to survive... It had a scene (remember this is all 320x200, in a 200x150 game window, the rest was inventory and shit) where you had to shoot this mafia boss who was apparently screwing his girl/wife at the time... It was a pretty harsh scene, but I did not feel that either the sex or the violence was inappropriate, because it greatly added to the atmosphere.

It''s all about expression ...

and expression doesn''t mean one thing being done ... it means a million different answers ... each one expressing it''s little view of the world ... appealing to some particular audience ... justifying it''s own existence by having at least one human being glad that it exists ...

there are many man mutually exclusive expressions ... even though i love Douglas Adams and Monty Python (silly ironic and intelligent human) on the one hand ... Robert Heinlein and Orson Scott Card (poinient thoughts on human life and interesting visions) ... I know that I don''t want a game to be mostly serious and realistic and pollitically important ... and then to have them try to mix in silly british humor and inappropriate porno (is that possible???) ... it would ruin the expression they did have ... expressions need a certain level of purity to be enjoyed ... think about how good "Interview with a Vampire" would be if the had Barney (big purple doll) come up just so they could kill him pointlessly and please many American viewers. - not very ...

So I say ... give me lots of pointless sex for it''s own sake ... because sex is NEVER pointless ... it''s just about the single most domminant thing in all of human (and animal) society ...

And also give teanage males lotsa of tits and ass ... and macho heros .... and big explossions ...

But don''t let that stop Stars2 from coming out and exercising my brain ... and a game for gay audiences ... and girls ... and old people ... and kids ... and various religious and ethnic groups .. and various countries and cultures ... and smart people ... and morons ... and innocent optimists ... and cynical pessimists ...

and MOST importantly ... let there be at least SOME well made ... well balanced ... realistic games ... not all ... but some ... a game with a gay mage and a few lesbians .... but they don''t dominate the story with sex .. it just is ... and they go on about there exciting lives ... saving the world ... and let there be games with well adjusted people ... and non-stereotyped minorities ... and woman who are NOT supermodels ...

because we get our cultural identity from our media ... and if you look at games and TV and movies lately ... you''ll see that in America at least .. we''ve lost our base in reality ... british shows still have normal humans .. with imperfections .. overweight ... bad teeth ... etc etc .. but they tell a HUMAN story ... and we feel them just as deeply as these scantily glad waifs in America which make our dicks hard to look at even when the dialog is about a job promotion or something else unrelated to sex ... and all we can do is drool and think ... "yeah yeah ... bend over again ... " .. nothing wrong with sex ... i love porn ... but i like to watch a great movie like "Little Big Man" and not be destracted tooo much by the female actresses ...

So i say ... make games ... lots of them ... and make them well ... whatever type of game you want ... just do it better than the last guy ... or at least as good as the last guy ... andif you think a nice ass would make you enjoy the game better ... add it ... if you wanna see a guy sucking dick ... add it ... if you want to please parents and 4 year olds ... add cartoons and bright colors ... just make SOMEONE happy ... and don''t worry about who you don''t make happy ... that''s not your job ...

Sure nudity could be included but only in some rare and logical places..or could it? If a game was totally realistic in every sense, would teenagers just use it to peep on female locker rooms or toilets? Probably. Ugh, maybe nudity shouldn''t be included after all. I don''t think any game can really benefit from it gameplay-wise.