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Original post by owl Quoting Sarkozy: Quote: We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity. Is France entitled to follow such philosopy? I wonder why not?

If you think a woman in a burqa has no identity, then try spending some time with her. She is still human, she still has a face, she still has a personality. And if you open your eyes at actually Look at the Person, then maybe you will actually see them, and not just the fabric they Protect themselves with.

I remember reading about an experiment based on this. A group of guys were gathered, and their goal was to learn as much as they could about a woman in a 5 minute sitting with them in a speed dating kind of deal. The woman came in, some dressed to make Daisy Duke feel conservative, and some dressed in long loose clothes with head scarfs. Later in the test some of the Daisy girls came back dressed like the other women and repeated the test (Giving another name.)

Not one of the guys noticed when they met the same girl twice, but remembered more about who she was and what she was like (Different stories for different names) when they weren't distracted by excessive amounts of flesh.



*Note: A husband who Forces his wife to do anything should be taken out to the woods and shot like the worthless animal he is.

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Original post by Valderman Quote: Original post by owl Quoting Sarkozy: Quote: We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity. Is France entitled to follow such philosopy? I wonder why not? Let's pretend for a moment that this really is about promoting liberty for the handful of muslim women that do wear a burqa; what do you think it would accomplish? Will their evil, repressing husbands read the newspaper and exclaim by Allah, they're right! I've been wrong all this time - cast off thy bulky wrapping and be free? Hardly. Any preschooler could figure out that they'd just keep their wrapped-up wife locked up and segregated from the rest of society even more. How is that promoting liberty for those women? How many women are being forced to wear a burqa anyway? Does there even exist scientific proof that this is indeed a problem, or is President France just guessing about it?

The president of France is speaking for France and France seems to feel represented by his sayings. So, if France finds your religious customs disrespectful towards it's beliefs, France is free to tell you: You're not welcome here. Just as the Arab Emirates are free to imprision two british lesbians for a month for caressing eachother in public.

My feelings are pretty mixed on the ban. The Burqa is a cultural interpretation of Islam, but not a requirement of Islam. If you move into a foreign country, there has to be some mixing of your culture with what the natives do. However, even though I really dislike the burqa, I have to admit I also don't really like banning them outright. I do believe some people wear them because it is their identity.

I do agree with fining people who force women to wear a burqa, although I'm not sure how that's going to work in practice.

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Original post by Talroth I remember reading about an experiment based on this.[...]

Reminds me of Dating in the Dark. Same premise.

I'm ignorant on the subject since I've never seen anything with a burqa or talked with anyone that had one. There was a Community episode with it though which portrayed them as a form of control over women. Probably just one of the many viewpoints, but it does sound most similar to their old use. Not sure if that's changed.

I like how the subject of shallowness comes up with this conversation. I mean if you can't judge a women on her looks (other than shape and sometimes eye color) then it's mostly down to personality. Well until you actually see their face. Kind of delaying the inevitable with that one.

Kind of reminds me of how hats aren't allowed in US schools normally, but then going a step too far and banning hats for everyone. Though hats don't have secret meanings normally which I believe in the bigger issue.

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Original post by owl Quote: Original post by Valderman Quote: Original post by owl Quoting Sarkozy: Quote: We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity. Is France entitled to follow such philosopy? I wonder why not? Let's pretend for a moment that this really is about promoting liberty for the handful of muslim women that do wear a burqa; what do you think it would accomplish? Will their evil, repressing husbands read the newspaper and exclaim by Allah, they're right! I've been wrong all this time - cast off thy bulky wrapping and be free? Hardly. Any preschooler could figure out that they'd just keep their wrapped-up wife locked up and segregated from the rest of society even more. How is that promoting liberty for those women? How many women are being forced to wear a burqa anyway? Does there even exist scientific proof that this is indeed a problem, or is President France just guessing about it? The president of France is speaking for France and France seems to feel represented by his sayings. So, if France finds your religious customs disrespectful towards it's beliefs, France is free to tell you: You're not welcome here. Just as the Arab Emirates are free to imprision two british lesbians for a month for caressing eachother in public.

Yes, King France is most definitely allowed to do so and his loyal minions are quite entitled to their beliefs, just as I'm allowed to point out that the law in question is retarded, that King President is a liar if he claims to care about the women in question, that each and every one who claims such a law is in the interest of liberty is either a hypocrite or short of wits, and that comparing yourself to Saudi Arabia is a pretty bad move when you're allegedly promoting freedom and liberty.

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Original post by Binomine I do agree with fining people who force women to wear a burqa, although I'm not sure how that's going to work in practice.

Can we fine women who force men to carry out the trash?

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Original post by Valderman Quote: The president of France is speaking for France and France seems to feel represented by his sayings. So, if France finds your religious customs disrespectful towards it's beliefs, France is free to tell you: You're not welcome here. Just as the Arab Emirates are free to imprision two british lesbians for a month for caressing eachother in public. Yes, King France is most definitely allowed to do so and his loyal minions are quite entitled to their beliefs, just as I'm allowed to point out that the law in question is retarded, that King President is a liar if he claims to care about the women in question, that each and every one who claims such a law is in the interest of liberty is either a hypocrite or short of wits, and that comparing yourself to Saudi Arabia is a pretty bad move when you're allegedly promoting freedom and liberty.

Fighting what is considered to be wrong is a form of defending what is considered to be freedom. Whether or not the president of France is a "bad person" is beyond this discussion. I'm not against the government of Saudi Arabia doing what it considers to be right inside it's borders, even when I may not agree with it.

Women can't have coffe at the Champs Elysees wearing a Burqa? I see no riots against that.

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Original post by owl Quote: Original post by Valderman Quote: The president of France is speaking for France and France seems to feel represented by his sayings. So, if France finds your religious customs disrespectful towards it's beliefs, France is free to tell you: You're not welcome here. Just as the Arab Emirates are free to imprision two british lesbians for a month for caressing eachother in public. Yes, King France is most definitely allowed to do so and his loyal minions are quite entitled to their beliefs, just as I'm allowed to point out that the law in question is retarded, that King President is a liar if he claims to care about the women in question, that each and every one who claims such a law is in the interest of liberty is either a hypocrite or short of wits, and that comparing yourself to Saudi Arabia is a pretty bad move when you're allegedly promoting freedom and liberty. Fighting what is considered to be wrong is a form of defending what is considered to be freedom.

No. Fighting what is considered wrong is a form of defending what is considered right, and "freedom" and "right" are not always the same thing. In this case the french might well think people wearing burqa is wrong which is very hard to argue against - morals are subjective, after all - but freedom and/or liberty at least have some sort of definition, and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who includes "being prohibited from wearing whatever clothes I like" in that definition. Thus, whether King President France-man is a jackass or not is, as you say, of little import. I'm saying he's a liar because he claims the burqa ban is an action to promote liberty.

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Original post by Valderman Quote: Original post by owl Quoting Sarkozy: Quote: We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity. Is France entitled to follow such philosopy? I wonder why not? Let's pretend for a moment that this really is about promoting liberty for the handful of muslim women that do wear a burqa; what do you think it would accomplish? Will their evil, repressing husbands read the newspaper and exclaim by Allah, they're right! I've been wrong all this time - cast off thy bulky wrapping and be free? Hardly. Any preschooler could figure out that they'd just keep their wrapped-up wife locked up and segregated from the rest of society even more. How is that promoting liberty for those women?

With banning burkas, its simply impossible not to either break the law or break their marriage. Never going outside isnt an option, not even for muslim women. They are going to have to subject their mores to a sliding scale or face unacceptable consequences. If nothing else, interaction with the french government will force them to go outdoors; medicine is a strict govenment monopoly for instance.

How many women are being forced to wear a burqa anyway? Does there even exist scientific proof that this is indeed a problem, or is President France just guessing about it?
I dont think scientific proof has much to do with it. Its a subjective preference of the french not to like burkas; or at least so the democratic process would have us believe. Im no fan of said process, mind, but not because it isnt a reasonable empirical gauge of opinion.

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If King France is so interested in women's rights, perhaps he should start with domestic violence, which apparently kills one woman every five days. (Or at least did 10 years ago - I doubt that anything has changed siginficantly since then.) Oh wait, aryan frenchmen also beat their wives - he'd have to turn on some of his own people rather than uniting them against the evil muslim invaders come to steal the French culture and detonate themselves in the streets.

Is domestic violence legal in france? His muslim subject have the vote too by the way; sure, its relatively easy to turn on a minority, but the same goes for pretty much any democratic decision.

That said, just like your arguments, this ban is retarded.

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With banning burkas, its simply impossible not to either break the law or break their marriage. Never going outside isnt an option, not even for muslim women. They are going to have to subject their mores to a sliding scale or face unacceptable consequences. If nothing else, interaction with the french government will force them to go outdoors; medicine is a strict govenment monopoly for instance.

If these oppressing husbands are evil enough that you need to ban EVERYONE from wearing a whole body ninja outfit to thwart them, then they're simply not going to let them out without a burqa, end of story.

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I dont think scientific proof has much to do with it. Its a subjective preference of the french not to like burkas; or at least so the democratic process would have us believe.

There are lots of things a majority of the population doesn't like, does that mean they should also be banned? One of the cornerstones of democracy is to protect weak groups from mob rule; this includes not banning the shit out of everything 50.1% of the population doesn't like unless there is a very pressing reason (hint: there might be someone somewhere who's forced to wear a certain piece of clothing is NOT a very pressing reason for anything at all.) Saying "well, public opinion says so" is just a cop-out from a politician who doesn't want to take responsibility, especially when said politician is working furiously to introduce all sorts of legislation that a majority of the people does not want (ACTA, Lisbon treaty.)

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Is domestic violence legal in france?

Irrelevant. Unless you're convinced that everything that can possibly be done to stop it is being done, shotgun debugging women's rights is an irresponsible waste of resources.

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His muslim subject have the vote too by the way

What does that have to do with anything?

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sure, its relatively easy to turn on a minority, but the same goes for pretty much any democratic decision.

Democracy is more than "everyone gets to vote every n years." Unless you consider Cuba and China democracies?

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That said, just like your arguments, this ban is retarded.

My arguments, the ban and your view of democracy; I guess it's not only good thing that comes in threes.