I can see it is important to be aware that you wont be the next Bill Gates, more than likely, but you shouldnt be discouraged. I think its good to know what amount of money youll be paid, but then theres people posting here telling you to give up, because they arent succeeding. That doesnt mean you can succeed. Your fourteen, your fine, you realize that, but theres also 11/12, some even younger kids getting into game programming, and they dont know what you know, and they dont have expierience in life. So some people need to keep thier big mouths shut or say it in a way that people can tell its just thier view on it, rather than discouraging young people.

"I''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''Urden

"I want the same chance that every other person has at being successful."

LOL. Not in this world. Every few seconds (depending on the source) someone dies of hunger, most of them are children, go tell them about your problem with not having the same chances as other people.

"So some people need to keep thier big mouths shut or say it in a way that people can tell its just thier view on it, rather than discouraging young people."

Saying "you won''t make it" it''s simply false cos you can never know, but saying "there''s a very very high probability that you won''t make it so have a serious plan B in case you fail (like studying something else at college)" is not discouraging anybody. If I would have considered seriously an alternative option in the past then maybe I wouldn''t be considering suicide now, although I never listened to anybody so no one''s opinion would have made any difference, but to the ones that do listen and are not as stupid as me (probably everybody):
Consider an alternative option in case you fail!

Wow, a lot of cynicism. I never published or attempted publication of budget software, so I would have to take people at their word that it is touch and low pay.

However, budget software is not the whole industry. Mabye I was lucky, but I had no trouble getting my foot into the door of the industry. I applied for an internship at two local and small gamedev companies, and got an interview offer at both (through a weird set of circumstances, I only went to one interview). Anyways, I got the job and just finished my second summer there. No troubles at all, and considering I had just finished my freshman year at college, the pay was very good. Probably a lot of it had to do with location, but that's life.

To respond to the original post - yes it's always a good idea to have back up plans. But don't give up on dreams because of some cynicism on the internet. There are too many factors to give you accurate odds of making it in, but hard work and skill will not lower your odds.


Mike

Edited by - Vetinari on September 6, 2001 10:13:16 PM

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
I want the same chance that every other person has at being successful.

Opportunities are usually disguised as hard work, so most people don''t recognize them. --- Ann Landers 1918

There''s no substitute for hard work. --- Thomas A Edison 1847

I''m a great believer in luck, and I find that the harder I work, the more I have of it. --- Thomas Jefferson 1743

In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity --- Albert Einstein 1879

The words from the successful which, except for Jefferson, had less ''chance'' than many. Don''t wait for someone to hand you success because they won''t. Create your own damn succcess.


Mike

Shit, thta was me.


Mike

Sorry I haven't checked this topic recently, so I have a bit to say.

First - To the moron that said that I didn't know what I was talking about, let me put it this way:

If I wasn't 110% sure, by way of my friends that work there, that WizWorks is in trouble, I would have said "I'm not sure, but I think", not being definite. So next time - post with a real name, not a coward's AP, grow up, and do your own research before challenging claims.

Second - it's the ugly truth. I mean, the gamedev industry has about a 2.5% chance of success. At best. And you won't be making much. I know a few kids in my neighborhood that are about 12 (programming since about 10) and they know very well that the chances of making it in the market are about as much as a snowball in a sauna. I mean, they're already getting their certifications soon. So Drizzt - grow up in the maturity level about five years, then come back. We need more topics like this. They're utterly accurate, utterly true, and they'll scare off the ones on a lark. Which is good. Now, call me twisted, cruel, I don't care. All I know is that the fewer diluting the market - and this is part of a rant that I wrote a while back, talking about how crap games - not just budget games, Kingdom Under Fire, Fly! 2, Star Trek Away Team come to mind - scare off newbie gamers that think all games are that bad.
(Okay, I'm starting to sound like Derek Smart...different topic.)

Third - Vetinari, you're right. Budget software isn't the whole of the industry. But it's the indie sector, mostly. So most of the people around here whining about how hard the industry is...that's all they know. So unfortunately, your claims - and mine - will probably fall on deaf ears.

Fourth - Of COURSE you should have a backup plan. If you don't - and I'll be blunt - you should check your IQ, to make sure you'd even be qualified to cook french fries at McDonald's. I mean, I'm still underage, and I've already learned basic database stuff, have about three years of Crapintosh experience, and am learning a bunch of other stuff in my spare time. You NEED TO HAVE A GOOD BACKUP PLAN or you're sunk.

Edited by - Edward Ropple on September 8, 2001 10:30:13 AM

Edited by - Edward Ropple on September 8, 2001 10:32:13 AM

Edited by - Edward Ropple on September 10, 2001 6:07:18 PM

Hi Edward,

I agree with you about these kind of topics, they are needed more. It''s about sharing our experience. If I knew this information or knowledge of experience earlier, it would be clear that the games industry isn''t an industry where you can make much money to get rich or what I prefered as an adult indie developer to live from the earnings.

About Wizardworks, you get inside information that they aren''t doing well. All I can say about this is that I believe it.
I know one (past) indie developer of Wizardworks who confirmed it. Because I thought that they earned much, but that isn''t true.
Only the Deer Hunter series sells well, the rest of there products unfortunately not.

So I also think (read THINK) the same is happened to Expert software and Headgames, that''s why they are took over by Activision Value.

Wizardworks is however a budget division of Infogrames, but that is not meaning that they are financial stabile and profitable. As division they need to make there profit, if it isn''t, they got there financial back up of Infogrames, otherwise the company is going down.

Also at the moment all "old" big budget games of the big publishers are sold for low budget price. Looks like
unfair competition to the budget publishers like Valusoft, who aren''t owned by a big publisher or a public company. But big
publishers got that righ to do so, the budget division sells
"old" games like driver and other race games on a collection for a very low price. These old games were sold a couple a year ago for the full price like $50. So you can know imagine how difficult it is.

If I even got the possibility to develop a game like Driver and Valusoft (example) would publish my "small" Driver game. You could see the clue of the problem in retail. Because my game is new it could perhaps be sold. But the orginal Driver is so well promoted and I can buy it now for a low price. So which one should I buy from the view of the customer. And not only my "small" Driver game is on the shelves there are more, Midtown Madness 1 (also Midtown Madness 2 but that price is a bit higher because it''s a couple months old, so still fresh), etc. Also much Rally games, which are sold stand alone for a very very low price. So you noticed the problem.

It''s only earning pocket money as a part time indie developer, you can do nice things with these pocket money. You can buy new games

If the game is good enough, it doesnt matter what the market looks like, you will succeed anyway.

Good Games Always Sell,
and if they dont, they arent good enough.

The Joyful truth

Lean back and continue coding with a smile on your face,
because in the end, you are the winner, and the rest are
the whiners.






The Game Industry
OpenGL/OpenAL/OpenNL

Ed:

Hmmmm... Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough when I specificly stated topics like this are important. What is not important is someone like you telling people they should not try because in your personal opinion they can't. You should push your head through your window, which I am sure you have one in your cubbyhole, and take a quik look at reality. When was the last time you have done something fun, besides program a game(which you more than likely have never done anyway)? You can probably see a 7 year old child and his 8 year old friend from up the street tossing a football back and forth, or kicking a soccer ball, etc. One of them probably joins a ssport when hes alittle older, and realizses he is not very good at it. But his parents and family, or others who played the sport, usually didn't say "give up." You, your probably anti-social. You played a sport before, realized you were no good at it, and then decided to sit inside and enjoy the blindness you will recieve before you reach 60 years of life. I encourage you to do it, it seems to be keeping you arrogant and happy as ever. I will laugh in your face when after all of your training, you are not able to sell one game. yet, your best friend who used to be the captain of the football team is a game dveloper, who has a wife and a kid. He has a good life, and he does not sit home all day trying to create a reality for himself, since he belives the one given to him is unfair. Even if I do have you figured out all wrong, I have no doubt in my mind that you plan on doing something with computers when you get older. And, i have no doubt in my mind that you won't. But you will not be happy with your job, not with your attitude. I hope the best for the youngest people reading this post, who see you telling them to give up.

You say an alternate career is smart, whats yours? No matter how you look at it, your general career is going to be someone who sits on a computer all day, and has trouble seeing in the sunlight since he is never in it. And to lessen your arrogance, know you have a short life ahead of you. As long as 70 years may sound you should think of how much faster it has gone every year. What is everything you are learning worth to your corpse? Hmmm? Who are you to tell anyone else what to do with thier short lives, expecialy one's who don't even understand how short life really is.

So while you waste away, know that there are football players, archieologists, and other occupations available to those around you, that will allow them to have time in thier life to do fun things, and make much more money than you. Your life will go much faster than someone who actually does different things every day.

One day, when you yourself, can mature, you will know well what words should stay to yourself, and what words should not. For now, while you keep the rest of your life shut, do the same with your words.

"I've sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do'Urden

Edited by - Drizzt DoUrden on September 8, 2001 2:41:29 PM

Drizzt DoUrden,

Hmmm... you don''t understand the goal of this topic.
That''s poor.

I don''t spend time to explain it. Perhaps someone else is interested to do.

You can do this not for living.
For pocket money and as hobby yes.
Read all replies and experiences first and carefull.
Read the reply of Roman Arce and also the rest.

Nobody is telling or correcting not to dream about getting rich, we only tell here our experience and the truth.

I got a deal for my own arcade game package. It gives me a great feeling, that my games, with my name on it, are sold in retail and thousands of people buy it. It won''t make me enoug money to develop full time, what I prefer. Even if I got a deal for a bit more products. If I got luck there is perhaps somewhere a possibility, but face it, there is too much competition out there.

About Hull. >Good Games Always Sell,
That are nice talks. If the marketing, promotion, package isn''t well....what happened do you think. Even if the game is good.
There are some (big budget) games, where the publisher didn''t spend enough on the marketing, promotion etc.
The development houses did it well, the games were of good quality and well reviewed in the press. But it didn''t make it. Publisher mistake?

Also Low Budget games aren''t promoted well or in most cases not.

Only the Big budget products of EA, UBIsoft, etc. etc. So face it. They get stands in the shop, posters or flyers, radio or TV campaign, etc.