Quote: Original post by Prune
I'm not a self-professed libertarian.

Fair enough. You still seem more interested in gloating than anything else.

Quote: Original post by Prune
Your argument is invalid.

Which argument? And what about the questions I asked?

Quote: Original post by Prune
Nice red herring bait though. I'm sure everyone around here was diverted *rolleyes*

Do you really think that mistakenly identifying you as a libertarian is a red herring or a diversion?

Quote: Original post by Prune
Your argument is invalid.

Nice red herring bait though. I'm sure everyone around here was diverted *rolleyes*

Not really. He's correct in that you seem more concerned about flaunting your self-imagined superiority.

Regardless, you've painted Obama voters with a large brush. Most of them were smart enough to realize that the government is large and has a lot of power dynamics in place that will make change difficult. Hope in this context is the hope that Obama will make things better, not that he will somehow magically change the US government into some ideal in 4 (or 8) short years.

Obama has done some very bad things, and the vendetta against WikiLeaks is one of them, but it doesn't mean he's "Bush 3" and that there have been no improvements at all. That's simply lazy thinking, and it appears that you're engaging in it so you can stroke your ego. People who disagree with you are not sheep.

Quote: Original post by Rycross
Not really. He's correct in that you seem more concerned about flaunting your self-imagined superiority.

Who on the internet isn't more concerned with flaunting their self-imagined superiority?

Quote: Original post by Rycross
Not really. He's correct in that you seem more concerned about flaunting your self-imagined superiority.

You too? Seriously...
Whether or not I am gloating has no bearing upon the topic! The topic is the Obama administration's handling of the issue, not my opinion on it, for crying out loud. The latter is just decoration, and if anything, could even be seen as a good thing as that way I'm being forthcoming about my bias.

Quote: Most of them were smart enough to realize that the government is large and has a lot of power dynamics in place that will make change difficult.

Come on, no matter how many times we all hear this repeated by Obama supporters, it doesn't make it any more true. Blaming a previous administration is scapegoating and the worst sort of apologeticism.

The hypocrisy of the left has really gone beyond all bounds over the past few years. A prime example is the vilifying of the Koch brothers, while all the while ignoring George Soros' adolescent past as a Nazi collaborator, all because he's perceived as a supporter of the left and socialist causes (although even in that respect the hypocrisy is tremendous as he enormously profited from both the current financial crisis and the currency speculation against the UK in the early 90s which destroyed the savings of untold numbers--all the while speaking out against capitalism).

Quote: Obama has done some very bad things, and the vendetta against WikiLeaks is one of them, but it doesn't mean he's "Bush 3" and that there have been no improvements at all. That's simply lazy thinking, and it appears that you're engaging in it so you can stroke your ego. People who disagree with you are not sheep.

Rather than stroking my ego, I'm simply expressing my disgust at politicians and those who vote them in power.

Quote: Original post by Prune
You too? Seriously...
Whether or not I am gloating has no bearing upon the topic! The topic is the Obama administration's handling of the issue, not my opinion on it, for crying out loud. The latter is just decoration, and if anything, could even be seen as a good thing as that way I'm being forthcoming about my bias.

I call them like I see them. You posted an article, and rather than give your analysis on it simply wrote some, "LOL Obama voters!" tripe. If you want people to discuss the article then perhaps you should contribute to that discussion. If you don't want people to criticize your "decoration" then maybe choose a decorating statement that isn't arrogant and inflammatory.

Quote: Original post by Prune
Come on, no matter how many times we all hear this repeated by Obama supporters, it doesn't make it any more true. Blaming a previous administration is scapegoating and the worst sort of apologeticism.

It doesn't make it false either. One man cannot change the entire power structure and policies of the United States government in four years. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. Obama is not a dictator, no matter how shrilly people claim otherwise. Recognizing this is not the same as scapegoating or apologizing Obama's screw-ups. Rather, admitting that you can't necessarily get everything you want and should do what you can when you can is the way actual problems get solved. You've demonstrated a shocking lack of nuanced thinking in this reply. Put away that wide brush you're using. I'm not trying to apologize for Obama, but rather explain how your self-important statements missed the mark.

Quote: Original post by Prune
The hypocrisy of the left has really gone beyond all bounds over the past few years. A prime example is the vilifying of the Koch brothers, while all the while ignoring George Soros' adolescent past as a Nazi collaborator, all because he's perceived as a supporter of the left and socialist causes (although even in that respect the hypocrisy is tremendous as he enormously profited from both the current financial crisis and the currency speculation against the UK in the early 90s which destroyed the savings of untold numbers--all the while speaking out against capitalism).

What the hell? Tangents anyone? Am I the "left" now? I don't recall vilifying Koch while sparing Soros. Regardless, there are plenty of people who criticize both. Its not hypocritical to do so, even if you don't criticize them in the same breath. The Koch brothers are mounting a continuing campaign, so they will stay in the public eye. Why are you making this about the left anyway? Could you be any more partisan?

Quote: Original post by Prune
Rather than stroking my ego, I'm simply expressing my disgust at politicians and those who vote them in power.

You were stroking your ego. Your statement was explicitly looking down on people who voted Obama by misrepresenting their intentions. General disgust at politicians and the people who vote for them isn't improving anything.

Who doesn't vote for politicians anyway? Once they're voted in, they're politicians. Or are you saying that you don't vote? Is the message here that you hold discuss that people don't vote for the politicians you deem appropriate? That seems to be closer to the mark. Again. people who don't agree with you are not inferior.

Quote: Original post by taby

Quote: Original post by M2tM
...

But we already know for a fact that Bush led a government that accepted the torture of prisoners of war.

To continue harping on that fact would be an abuse of the US legal system's time and energy.

Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but are you suggesting that justice is a waste of the US legal system's time and energy?

Quote: Original post by Prune

Quote: Original post by Rycross
Not really. He's correct in that you seem more concerned about flaunting your self-imagined superiority.

You too? Seriously...

Me too, and I was toying with whether or not to suspend you for blatant trolling. I decided against it, for the time being.

Quote: The topic is the Obama administration's handling of the issue, not my opinion on it, for crying out loud. The latter is just decoration, and if anything, could even be seen as a good thing as that way I'm being forthcoming about my bias.

Per Lounge rules, you must accompany any links posted with discussion. If your discussion is not about the link in question, then maybe this thread should be closed. Your opinion about the topic is the relevant point, because the Lounge is not the discussion section of Salon's opinion pages.

"LOL the other side sucks" is not valid discussion and I will handle it quite aggressively if it continues.

Quote: Original post by RycrossObama has done some very bad things, and the vendetta against WikiLeaks is one of them, but it doesn't mean he's "Bush 3" and that there have been no improvements at all.

I would agree with you there, except replace the word "bad" with "grossly incompetent and heinously irresponsible". I'm sure he *has* done some good things. The trouble is that nothing in that regard is even remotely as good as the rest is bad. It's like saying Hitler wasn't all bad, because he never once cheated on his taxes.

Promit, I'm too old to troll, and it feels like you are unfairly targeting me because our views are not aligned. I clearly feel strongly about the issue and thought I'd spread the word, as it were (i.e. the article), thinking I would get some interesting replies (which I did, even if I disagree with most of them).

In my experience, most engineers tend to be inclined to the right, but with software engineers I usually see the reverse, and so I expected that tilt when I first dared to make a politics-related post on this forum; however, I also thought that the higher level of education among this population would also imply a higher level of tolerance for other views. What I've encountered though in Lounge is dismissal and mean-spiritedness towards me that stand in stark contrast to the rest of the forum sections at gamedev.net, where I've been more or less treated politely and carried on reasonable discussion. Since the difference between my posts elsewhere and my posts in Lounge is that political views are being expressed here, I hope you can understand then why I would see the way I'm being manhandled here as a diluted form of persecution for my political opinions.

Quote: Original post by Prune

Quote: Original post by Rycross
Not really. He's correct in that you seem more concerned about flaunting your self-imagined superiority.

You too? Seriously...
Whether or not I am gloating has no bearing upon the topic! The topic is the Obama administration's handling of the issue, not my opinion on it, for crying out loud. The latter is just decoration, and if anything, could even be seen as a good thing as that way I'm being forthcoming about my bias.

If the topic is how the Obama administration handled the issue rather than how the judges ruled (which is why the issue is in the news right now), then to the extent that you framed the issue as a gloat ("loling"!), then your gloat does bear on the topic.

Quote: Original post by Prune

Quote: Most of them were smart enough to realize that the government is large and has a lot of power dynamics in place that will make change difficult.

Come on, no matter how many times we all hear this repeated by Obama supporters, it doesn't make it any more true. Blaming a previous administration is scapegoating and the worst sort of apologeticism.

The Obama administration is behaving as one would expect the executive branch to behave, by seeking the expansion of it's power. This has been the case for every President in the last 70 years, probably going all the way back to John Adams (which is to say that the last president that didn't try to expand his power was George Washington). The framers of the Constitution understood that executives seek to expand their power, hence the system of checks and balances. As for blaming the previous administration, Fox News still blames Clinton for thins he didn't do every now and again. That said, with regard to rendition, Bush established the precedent and Obama has ratified it. I can only imagine the howls that would come from Fox News (and subsequently the Fox News water carriers in the rest of the media) if Obama had chosen instead to do the right thing and not appealed the lower court ruling. Look how they cried over the possibility of trying KSM in New York or how they cried over the possibility that Gitmo detainees might be transfered to high security prisons in the US.

Quote: Original post by Prune
The hypocrisy of the left has really gone beyond all bounds over the past few years. A prime example is the vilifying of the Koch brothers, while all the while ignoring George Soros' adolescent past as a Nazi collaborator, all because he's perceived as a supporter of the left and socialist causes (although even in that respect the hypocrisy is tremendous as he enormously profited from both the current financial crisis and the currency speculation against the UK in the early 90s which destroyed the savings of untold numbers--all the while speaking out against capitalism).

The hypocrisy of the left? Oh please! The Pope was a Nazi collaborator! (And still is quite fascist in some ways if you ask me). The Koch brothers fund astroturf groups in order to promote their financial agenda. They talk up free market principles even as they take massive subsidies from the government. Talk about hypocrites!

Quote: Original post by Prune
Rather than stroking my ego, I'm simply expressing my disgust at politicians and those who vote them in power.

Your disgust with the people is obvious.