I'm kind of in a strange place here. I took a chance with this independent developer (one person working on their home computer) who's making a somewhat interesting game using rpgmaker. the game's going to be for free if it's ever done, i agreed because i thought it could be good experience and something to put on a resume. Nothing has been agreed to in writing. She's having me send her the songs in old 8bit sounds before i do better sounds so she can check if the song is catchy and interesting enough. So far she's loved the 8bit but hated the nice versions. What do you guys think, is this a waste of my time? is it worth working for free to gain some experience, even if it's not going to be the best experience?

side note, i'm working on a pc using fl studio. I'm not sure if that's the best thing to use or what's actually used in the industry, but it's getting the job done so far

If you enjoy it and don't dread doing it, go ahead and work with her. If it's more work than enjoyment (she's a pain to work with) just make scores and songs by yourself and post them to sites like 8 bit collective (www.8bc.org) and similar sites (go to their forums and ask around).

If you ever go into the industry you're most likely going to end up starting out doing things you don't want to do with people you don't want to do them with. Try to enjoy your passion while you can and only compromise when the benefits outweigh the bull.

I think that it is perfectly normal to demand quality in the work requested to providers, even if working for free, the person with whom you are working is simply telling that she doesn´t like the new versions and that you should be improving it.
It happens all the time in the industry, with co-workers, with publishers, with customers.

Team working in one of the hardest things in any kind of work.


Regards,
D.

I'm just fine with reworking the songs. She makes good points most of the time. The onle time it becomes a problem is when one day she says "Oh that's perfect I love it!" and then 2 hours later she says "hey this isn't very good, i want you to do it again". I'm not quite sure how to improve what i'm putting out there to keep her happy with the feedback that she's giving me. I'm sure this happens all the time in the industry, I'm using this as a way to see how i deal with it to see if it's something i reaaaalllly want to to pursue. Frankly, the biggest problem i'm running in to is that i just flat out don't know how to accomplish what she's asking with the tools i have.

A_J: You ask a VERY good question. As you work more and more with clients you'll find that each client has a different work flow and method of communicating. Here's what I'd advise you to do with this particular client then later I'll make some general observations:

I would write her a kind email explaining how her feedback at times is confusing to you. I stress the word kind. :) Make it more about a concern for doing what is best for the game and less about wasting your time or anything like that. If needed copy and paste portions of her past emails where at one point she's praising the song then only two hours later hates it and wants a redo. If you can show her that this change in feedback leaves doubts as to her expectations and vision of the game perhaps the two of you can come to an agreement about how to work together better.

Also I feel that giving the client two versions (an 8-bit version and a nice (final) version) is a mistake. Why? Because not every client will have the ability to see what an audio file could be. Some people call it the inner eye and it's how architects can envision the space where a building will be built, how a painter can sketch out a painting on a blank canvas and how us audio nerds can hear a piece with low-res samples and envision what it could become. Some clients will be good at this and some will not- it all depends on their individual gifts and abilities. In this case she loves all of the 8-bit stuff. So... maybe she actually only wants 8-bit music and doesn't realize it. Maybe what you're changing the samples to doesn't fit the game. My point is always try and give the client something that is represents the final product as close as possible.

General observations (some of these can easily be applied to your current situation as well):

1) Revisions are a fact of the game industry. It happens. But that's not an excuse for a client to request revision after revision from you. This is a signal or symptom that something else is going wrong.

Explanation: Perhaps the client doesn't know what the audio vision of the game should be? Maybe your vision of the game is off and needs to be adjusted? Perhaps the client wants to request many revisions just to "see what happens." (Side note: I actually had a client say that to me once. "Oh the first one was great. I loved it. I just wanted to see what else you'd create.") Doing countless revisions can become frustrating, takes up more time than originally budgeted for the project and can give the client a level (or an expectation) of power that could be abused. "Hey I love the track. Perfect! Oh... can you change this one note over here. Oh, and I don't like the guitar sound. Change that and it will be done!" Rinse- repeat.

2) When revisions cost something, it makes a client re-evaluate if the "cost" is worth it. Without any cost factor applied to the revision, it's easy for a client to feel like they can request 20-30 revisions just because they want to without any consideration to your time and "budget."

Explanation: What I do in my contracts is I say three revisions are free. They come with the initial cost of the song. The client can use them at any time and for any reason. But any revisions requested past the first three cost extra. I explain to the client that I give frequent updates and have never had to charge extra for revisions but that I do this to try and keep development on schedule.

3) Always work under some form of written contract that is signed by both parties. Even on free projects.

Why are you not working with any kind of formal contract? Or even a loose series of emails? Even for free projects, I'd always have some kind of terms laid out and agreed to by both parties. Otherwise things could get messy. In the future always do this as it could really save you some hassle, headache and helps keep the boundaries clearly defined for everyone involved. For example what would happen if you suddenly found that she was selling the music your wrote or using it outside of the game and profiting from it? Does she own it? Do you? The first thing any type of legal authority would ask for is to see the written contract between you two. If you don't have one it can become a larger problem. Make it easy on yourself and just work under contract only.

4) Free projects shouldn't expect the same level of service a paying one does. Do your best to set the client's expectations to what you're willing to offer.

Explanation: Sorry, I'm just going to come right out and say it. This person is making a game and not paying you for your time and services. Sure you get to put a game on your resume but not all game credits are equal. If this indie game has very little exposure then it isn't the same as interning for free at Skywalker Ranch and getting to put that on your resume. As such, you should do your best to inform the client before working with them what to expect. If a free project wanted me to work with them I'd let them know what to expect. For example something like:

As a free project, I'll be happy to work with you but I must give paying clients first priority. This is a business I'm running after all and need to pay my bills.

This is a really delicate point and you have to use quite a bit of finesse when talking to clients about this. The worst thing you can do is try to inform the client of what you're willing to offer after having already starting work and realizing the terms need to change. If this is the case just finish out the project. It can be really hard to change the terms in the middle of the project.

5) Some clients feel as if their game project is the only one in the universe.

Explanation: What I mean is all a client cares about is completing their project- and rightfully so. They don't care if you have three other projects on your plate at the same time. This point dove tails with point 4. If you set the right type of expectations then you can easily manage multiple projects at one time. Always remember some "uh oh" time buffer when estimating how long a project will take. This will enable you to balance things better.

Sorry for my somewhat jumbled thoughts. I'll try and do a proof read of it later to make sure it's a bit better than a drunken monkey typing... but for now I have to get to work!

I hope this helps,

Nate

[Edited by - nsmadsen on July 28, 2010 9:11:53 AM]

Ah, thank you very much! I had all of that stuff going through my head when i agreed to this, i was just so eager to write some new music and work on something new I overlooked the basics. And, half of them i didn't know anyway. I sent her a message before I posted here saying basically "I know you want this game to be great and the music to fit, but I'm a bit confused about the kind of sound that you're going for. i'm working for free blah blah time commitment blah blah full time job blah blah" something like that. She responded by saying "sorry, you're doing it for free i won't ask for so many revisions in the future. Also, don't do the 8bit and then final version, it isn't working like i wanted it to etc etc"

So, this looks like it should be smooth(er) sailing from this point. I asked her if she would be willing to lay out the terms, especially rights to the music in writing or in emails if that's preferable.

I also asked her to explain her concept and vision of the game. I might be presuming too much on the client/composer relationship, but I think that information is pretty essential, so i'll risk that for the sake of getting better at what i hope to make a career of.

Thanks for your responses, they've really helped.






So, on sort of a side note, would anybody be willing to take a listen to a song or two and give me some tips? I'm not asking for a full play by play or anything, or anything at all really. If you've got some time and would be willing to give me a few pointers on the more technical side of things, that would also be greatly appreciated!

I'd be happy to take a listen. PM me a link (or you could post it publicly). Up to you. Glad to hear things are working out.

Thanks,

Nate

I'm sure she is very sensitive about her game and you are equally sensitive about your music so when one doesn't like the other tensions will rise. This is true in any creative industry and the best way to deal with it is to act mature and try to get into her mind and understand what she wants.

I'm sure you will work things out and when you see the final product you will be glad you stuck in there!!

Quote:

Original post by LionMX I'm sure she is very sensitive about her game and you are equally sensitive about your music so when one doesn't like the other tensions will rise. This is true in any creative industry and the best way to deal with it is to act mature and try to get into her mind and understand what she wants.

This is very true. I find that taking the attitude "I'm writing this piece for game X or for client Y" is very helpful. While we all pour our hearts and souls into our work having an appropriate level of distance from your freelance work can really help you stay objective and keep rising emotions out of the picture. I worked with one guy several years back that would get super pissed whenever anyone had a critique on his work. This is so disruptive to the process and made the rest of the team feel like they couldn't approach him or share their opinions on the work (and how it related to the project) without causing major drama. Keeping yourself objective can really help the workflow in a team environment positive and moving forward.

Thanks Nate! Your advice about taking feedback gracefully is very important in a creative industry often driven by reputation as much as skill.

I actually find myself in the client position and found your post helpful as well. Are there certain questions a composer should be asking a client to help direct the feedback? Conversely, what are some of the ways a client can get the most out of a composer without asking for endless revisions? I'm worried about micromanaging and not taking full advantage of a composer's creativity.

~Owen