Hey Guys,

It's been a long time since I last posted in here, and that's probably due to Real Life getting the better of me. I am beginning to come untethered again and started thinking more about Game Design and Magic Systems.

So background: I have been reading Stormed Fortress by Janny Wurts, and in this book (and the many that lead up to it) there have been instances of the Characters working arcane conjury in teams, where one character will create a framework on which other casters build. This got me thinking to how this could be expressed within a game.

My first thoughts were along the lines that if there is a framework being built of small components of a spell, that they could be built similarly to, say, World of Goo. Different Sigils or Cantrips could become the "goo-ball" on which a player could start building their spell. Different Sigils would then join and interact with the existing ones in specific ways (either by how many joins to other Sigils they can make, or refuse to make connections with certain sigils for example).

The "Spell" could then be built from some key components. The first being the basis, which could be the type of spell that is being cast, then the size of the spell to indicate the strength or power of the spell, and finally the Sigils on the "surface" of the spell structure could form the intent of the spell.

Obviously this kind of working is not for casting you "fireball" type spells, but, for example, for solving complex puzzles (such as a very specific spelled shield of a city).

By having a structure that is being built in real-time will also allow for Groups of people to work together to create some arcane conjury structure, or allow for others to battle within a conjury structure to subvert its intended purpose.

So, what kind of systems do you guys think could be used to achieve group casting. Do you think my example of the "structure" would actually work within a game. Are there any improvements to this initial idea that you can forsee?

Hmm... well, You can have 2 people with different talents and have them sort of combine through a 2 part system. An example would convey it better.

Mage 1 is a fire base area of effect caster.
Mage 2 is a lightning base single target caster.

Now, you have 2 mages with different skill sets.

Example 1: Mage 1 can create a magic circle, where all mages in or using that circle can inherit it's properties. Lets say he makes a Fire Magic Circle.

Mage 2 then gets into position, like standing on the circle. While standing on the circle, he can inherit the fire powers and shoot fireballs at single targets.

Example 2: Mage 2 can make a lightning magic circle, and like the other circle, any mage using it can use lightning based attacks. So Mage 1 can go onto it to cast a group attack.

Now, you mentioned using it in a puzzle. Here's a simple puzzle I guess... You have to power up 10 different machines at the same time, well, of course, this would make you use a lightning circle, with a mage with area of effect abilty. You can target the whole group of machines and cast.

I guess the system I was envisioning was more removed from the standard Game World than what you have suggested. Such that the mages all enter a trance state where they are effectively playing a mini-game of building blocks.

Each mage can choose how to extend the structure of an existing casting in whatever way they feel. Guilds would obviously work together harmoniously to build the spell that they were trying to achieve, whereas enemies might be in a battle to take control of the craft or dismantle it.

I like your idea for small workings such as the fireball example because it would be quick and could be used with very little skill. The only issue is I don't see how it could work in a Single player sense or where a party doesn't include the requisite skills for the task at hand. A mage should be able to construct the spell themselves, or with assistance to make it quicker or stronger.

I am starting to definitely see this as more of a Mini-game within the game. I mentioned World of Goo purely because of a "structure" and "building" perspective to explain how the component pieces of a spell could come together. I'd like to hear how you would go about more complex spell design between a pair of mages, or a group of mages if you were to implement it. Would you have both mages cast a circle on the ground in one place and then step in and cast their final spell giving the basis direction?

Actually, I guess a better question is: Are there already systems for having co-operative casting within Games?

I haven't seen any, other than Auric effects on party members.

Well, you could do it with the mages having more spread out abilities. And have magic circles stack to level up the power of the spell.

Like saying, those 2 mages are as they are, but instead of only having 1 elemental type of power, they have wind, water, fire and earth.

Both mages can implement circle of earth, so they're earth powers are now level 2. Lets say, Mage 1's earth power is creating a tower (make the ground push upward), and with the double circle, he can do so more quickly, and/or higher, making it push up like a punch to send something flying. While Mage 2's is shooting out rocks, but with his enhanced powers he rolls out giant boulder's instead.

Well then, you can use Mage 2's boulder technique to roll a boulder into position, and then, have Mage 1 send the boulder flying. A magical makeshift catapult.

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Original post by dwarfsoft Actually, I guess a better question is: Are there already systems for having co-operative casting within Games? I haven't seen any, other than Auric effects on party members.

Do you mean, games in general? Or do you mean, in this game, if it were one?

It's not common, but I know Dragon Age does have a very small co-op casting thing in their game, where you can cast out oil, and then cast fire on it.

I meant in existing games, or systems of magic that people had previously implemented and experimented with.

For the Dragon Age example, I probably wouldn't consider that Co-operative casting in that it is more like a compound cast as the first cast was completed which changed the environment in some way and then the second cast was more like a catalyst to the environment.

With co-operative casting the way I was envisioning it you would not have actually CAST ANYTHING until the completion of the working (by say casting a Sigil of finality into the mix).

Say for example you want to cast a spell of peace and tranquility. You know the Sigils you need to cast are P E A C and E in that order.

You build your base thus:

P-E-A-C-E

Once the basis is established you "build" your intent such that it is cast against a Dragon. You have "learned" this Dragons true name and thus you "weave" the Sigils ( D-R-@-G-0-W-N ) onto the base in such a way that the spell can "support" itself (which you can kind of grasp if you have seen World of Goo). For Example:

D-R-@-G-0-W-N \  | | |  /  P-E-A-C-E

Then you cast the Finality (!) Sigil into the mix to complete the spell and send it at the dragon.

A simple example but I envisage that it could be more complicated. For example:

 R-@-G-0-W |\ /|\ /| D-*-#-*-N |/  |  \| P-E-A-C-E

Where the above structure would be more powerful because it is more rigid, or that the *'s nad #'s increase the power within the spell. *'s can have 5 connections going out, #'s can have four. It would also depend on which order they were cast in. Also, the base always would be at the bottom (hence being a base) then the target or intent would always be the outermost sigils (the surface) of the conjury.

Does that make more sense? (I'm sure my spacing is about to get demolished)

No..... I can't say I've seen anything like that... not in games anyway. It probably requires too much logic and isn't very user friendly for any big company to put it in the game and gamble the fun out of it.

And indie games... I doubt most of them would think of something this big to incorporate into their games.

Now, I don't know if this is at all like how you were thinking but in Chinese Historical Fantasy stories, there are often times when a group of guys combine their power to fight someone stronger.

Like a group of five, who have varying degrees of power, like 2, 2, 3, 4, and 6. And they make a formation of

2-3
   |-6 to add up their powers of....17 to fight a guy who's power is 20, all by himself.
2-4

This is morelike a joining of powers, and then having the lead cast the spell. I believe in the Wheel of Time, Aes Sedai can do this.

That is interesting, because I had also considered something along the lines of having the group submit themselves as vessels and then have the lead caster basically tap their mana to make his spell at whatever power level was required.

In a multiplayer environment, though, this would likely get tedious for anyone who was not the lead caster. Which is why I was thinking along different lines to start with.

Well, to throw another spanner in the works, in the same Janny Wurts books the main character is also a master Bard, as well as being a spellbinder. He can actually cast spells through songs. There was an instance where he was 'casting' via music in unison with a regular sigil style casting.

I cannot even fathom how to incorporate something that intricate into a game, especially considering that in order to control music in a way that influences magic the systems would need to be fairly similar, with similar controls... which makes it the same system in the end.

Unless of course the same thing could be controlled by the user using a different system.

Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles. In multiplayer when someone casted a spell there was short period of time where the spell would be "in delay", other spells casted in the same area would amplify or completely change it.

Using fire twice would double the area and damage. using two different spells would be able to cause a completely different effect like "slow", "poison", or similar.

edit: all spells were basically area of affect type circles, rather than something like a bullet.

Quote:

Original post by dwarfsoft Unless of course the same thing could be controlled by the user using a different system.

Like Zelda's ocarina. Each rune could have a unique "vibration" or "note" (in the lore of the game).

The bard would need to, memorizing which notes mean what rune, play the tune on his instrument:


Then you could generate a tune from the notes of the runes played, filling in the gaps with additional notes to make it sound better.

(Funnily enough, those scribbles look like runes themselves; "peace' looking like a couple of hills, and "dragon" looks like a chinese-style dragon - that was unintentional)

Or you can cheat, and have each possible word, like "Peace" or "Dragon", have a pre-frabricated tune, to garuntee it sounds good.

The problem is, how does he play his tune while others are building their structure, partnering with them? It'd be difficult for multiple people of different classes interacting with different views/styles of the same object, to work together toward the same goal.

What you could do instead, is have different classes have different roles to play in the work. Instead of adding runes to the structure, the bard could either:
A) Play his own mini-game, to do something like "strengthen" the resulting power of the structure, or B) work on the same structure with the wizards, but work on it on a way they can't.

Maybe the bard doesn't add runes, but instead, can play music that visually intertwines through the structure, strengthening it, so it doesn't collapse, and perhaps adds side effects, based of the type of song. Maybe he plays the runes "Frost" through the structure, or the runes "Sleep", adding a sleep or frost effect to the structure the mages are building, with the potency of the side-effect determined by how on-key and properly paced(too-slow, too fast?) his playing of the runes were. Multiple bards overlaying the same word, say, "Sleep", into the structure would have it greatly increase it's potency. Whereas bards not cooperating with each other, one adding "Heat", another "Frost", might cancel out each other's effects.

Or maybe, while the mages are adding runes, and making sure they fit in the right place, the bard's songs blow "wind" across the structure, from one direction or another, to try to keep it from tipping over.

Oh, and I'm a huge fan of a failed spellcasts (structure falls over) damaging the casters horrendously. [smile]

Greatly simplified from what you are talking about, Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross allows for 'dual-techs' and (rarer)'tri-techs' where when two or three of your party-members use the right skills at the right time, they do a special attack in conjunction.