Quote: Original post by Valderman
Yeah, it's a good thing they're doing that. If they didn't, I don't know what would happen. The app store would probably be full of shitty programs that make fart sounds or something. Oh wait.

Apple are doing an exceedingly poor job of securing the quality of the content in the app store; quantity trumps quality there, it seems. I'm not complaining about their quality standards (lol, what quality standards?) but about the fact that Apple arbitrarily decides what languages you can and can not use to develop for iDevices. That is a very long shot from what the console companies are doing; if you wanted to write a PS3 game in Brainfuck, you'd certainly be allowed to do so as long as the end result was good.

Except for apps like that SOLD and made them alot of money. Obviously you haven't delt with the coveted Andriod yet, who sets no limits on what can be created, in one language, and on what machine. The applications are near horrible.

Quote: Original post by Christopher Loyd
Except for apps like that SOLD and made them alot of money. Obviously you haven't delt with the coveted Andriod yet, who sets no limits on what can be created, in one language, and on what machine. The applications are near horrible.

Are you telling me that every single one of the 200 000 applications in Apple's store are excellent, or even good? When there are more than 500 fart applications? And that every single one of the more than 100 000 applications for Android is a piece of crap? Please. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of applications for either platform are crap.

Quote: What is CLR written in, what is the platform SDK written in? What is kernel written in? The drivers? It's not technical reason, it's a decision made to prevent competition in certain areas, such as browsers, which cannot be built in managed code.

The point is that if I want to write my awesome application in a combination of Brainfuck and Scheme, I'm free to do so as long as I can get it to run on the CLR. Sure, it's a business decision as well as a technical one, but most people agree on the usefulnes of managed code. It's a bit harder to reach a conclusion on the usefulnes of restricting developers to ancient, unmanaged languages.

By the way, why couldn't a browser be built in managed code?

Quote: Of course they don't. Why would anyone want that?

In Apple's situation? Nobody. Consumers and competitors would though.

Quote: And managed C++ can be used with CLR.

Uh, yes, but I don't see what that's got to do with anything.

Quote: Original post by Valderman
Are you telling me that every single one of the 200 000 applications in Apple's store are excellent, or even good? When there are more than 500 fart applications? And that every single one of the more than 100 000 applications for Android is a piece of crap? Please. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of applications for either platform are crap.

I actually never found one app in the Andriod that wasn't better implemented on the iPhone/Touch actually.

In Windows, you've got a good bit of freedom to create, edit, and run applictions as you see fit...and what happens? Massive compatibility issues...between hardware and software alike. I constantly have Window users coming to me telling me that such and such will not work due to "Some generic windows error" and what can they do to fix it? I then spend the better parts of my nights figuring out what missing .DLL file they're lacking or what program to uncompress such and such file is needed.

While OSX is by far not my favorite operating system (if more developers would write for Linux, I'd choose this over anything) it comes to a point where I'm confident in my ability to download an iPhone or iPad application and see that it works, without me having to do anything extra for this to work. User-friendly is important in the market, and while Microsoft has prided itself in being user-friendly, it's gotten to the point to where it's really not anymore.

Quote: Original post by Christopher Loyd

Quote: Original post by Valderman
Are you telling me that every single one of the 200 000 applications in Apple's store are excellent, or even good? When there are more than 500 fart applications? And that every single one of the more than 100 000 applications for Android is a piece of crap? Please. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of applications for either platform are crap.

I actually never found one app in the Andriod that wasn't better implemented on the iPhone/Touch actually.

In Windows, you've got a good bit of freedom to create, edit, and run applictions as you see fit...and what happens? Massive compatibility issues...between hardware and software alike. I constantly have Window users coming to me telling me that such and such will not work due to "Some generic windows error" and what can they do to fix it? I then spend the better parts of my nights figuring out what missing .DLL file they're lacking or what program to uncompress such and such file is needed.

While OSX is by far not my favorite operating system (if more developers would write for Linux, I'd choose this over anything) it comes to a point where I'm confident in my ability to download an iPhone or iPad application and see that it works, without me having to do anything extra for this to work. User-friendly is important in the market, and while Microsoft has prided itself in being user-friendly, it's gotten to the point to where it's really not anymore.

User friendliness and compatibility are good, yes, but somehow I fail to see how these would be hampered by allowing people to use other tools than C, C++, ObjC and JS. Poor developers will make poor programs, no matter if they write them in C, Flash or C#.

EDIT: considering the fact that iPhone is, at least for the time being, the dominant market, the fact that developers put more time into their iPhone version is hardly surprising.

Quote: Original post by Christopher Loyd

Quote: Original post by Valderman
Good thing you told me about it, otherwise I might have done something stupid like, I don't know, perhaps keep using mine to do pretty much all of my work and schoolwork like I've been doing without problem for half a year now. If a netbook is useless, then what do you call a bulky, locked down device with neither keyboard nor multitasking capability? A paperweight?

I guess having an actual touchscreen keyboard isn't an option? In my experiences the Apple iPad's touchscreen keyboard has worked just as well as any for me.

The keyboard is one of the things I wonder about most.

How is it touch-typing with no tactile feedback (neither key presses nor home row nubs)? Or is touch-typing really viable at all? capn_midnight, did you prefer standing while typing so that you could view the screen while typing?

Also, doesn't the keyboard take up a significant portion of the screen? While I don't have much issue with my netbook's 10" screen, I don't know that I'd care to have half the screen taken up by a keyboard while doing any real work (or even typing this post).

Also, regarding the screen, how do you protect it? I like to throw my netbook in my backpack and not worry about it, but I'd be worried about the exposed screen on a tablet. (The convertible tablets, like ASUS' T101MT, look interesting.)

Quote:
I'm also guessing that multitasking is considered no more than 3 applications at once with Windows Basic that is loaded on pretty much every Netbook I've seen, unless of course you want to pay for the upgrade?

I wouldn't know about that, I run Kubuntu on mine.

I'm curious, what do you use your iPad for? I started using my netbook as my only computer and haven't looked back but I was willing to adjust to the device. In the end, though, it does everything I want it to. The iPad looks interesting, but I'm wondering how much use it would be to me. Since you hate netbooks so much, your perspective would be interesting.

E-mail and web-browsing are givens. I think that I've seen that Skype is available, so that's good. I'm assuming the iPad can view PDF's and Word documents, but how is it for writing LaTeX and Word documents (e.g. I wrote my thesis on my netbook)? Excel spreadsheets would be nice, too. My music library is in flac and ogg, can the iPad play those (one of the reasons I didn't get an iPod nano is because they don't)? What would I need to do to hook it up to a projector for presentations (PDF, PowerPoint, or otherwise)? How about creating presentations?

Those are the sorts of things I'd expect to be able to do with it. If I really want to push it, I'd ask if I could ssh (with X forwarding? without?) or VNC into another computer, but I assume I'd still need my netbook for that. I'm also assuming any kind of coding or running test simulations would simply be a lost cause (but ssh could help there).

The difference between what Apple have done with their 'lol, you can now only use these languages' and what MS have done is that MS have stated up front that, aside from selected partners, the only access you have is via the CLR on the Windows phone.

Apple, on the other hand, continue to show contempt for the people who made the iPlatform what is is by being inconsistant and silently changing the rules out from under them.

If Apple had released the iPlatform and said 'oh, and you can only use these languages to develop on it' then there wouldn't have been this fuss, but by changing the rules and effectively invalidating maybe a year or more of peoples work in a little spat with Adobe is nothing more than a big 'screw you' to developers.

Anyone can feel free to hitch their wagon to the Apple iPlatform train is they like, but don' be surprised if one day you find yourself no longer attached to the train (aka had your previously ok app pulled with no warning) or the tracks have changed and you've had no warning at all.

I, for one, don't consider that a 'developers dream', I consider it a nightmare...

Quote: Original post by Way Walker

Quote:
I'm also guessing that multitasking is considered no more than 3 applications at once with Windows Basic that is loaded on pretty much every Netbook I've seen, unless of course you want to pay for the upgrade?

I wouldn't know about that, I run Kubuntu on mine.

I'm curious, what do you use your iPad for? I started using my netbook as my only computer and haven't looked back but I was willing to adjust to the device. In the end, though, it does everything I want it to. The iPad looks interesting, but I'm wondering how much use it would be to me. Since you hate netbooks so much, your perspective would be interesting.

E-mail and web-browsing are givens. I think that I've seen that Skype is available, so that's good. I'm assuming the iPad can view PDF's and Word documents, but how is it for writing LaTeX and Word documents (e.g. I wrote my thesis on my netbook)? Excel spreadsheets would be nice, too. My music library is in flac and ogg, can the iPad play those (one of the reasons I didn't get an iPod nano is because they don't)? What would I need to do to hook it up to a projector for presentations (PDF, PowerPoint, or otherwise)? How about creating presentations?

Those are the sorts of things I'd expect to be able to do with it. If I really want to push it, I'd ask if I could ssh (with X forwarding? without?) or VNC into another computer, but I assume I'd still need my netbook for that. I'm also assuming any kind of coding or running test simulations would simply be a lost cause (but ssh could help there).

the iPad can create, edit, and redistribute PDF files and word documents via other applications, as far as the flac and ogg sound files, I'm not sure as I've never used either.

Powerpoint presentations can be created, edited, and implemented on this device. It can also be used as a second monitor for viewing such. Remote login to computers, both Mac and PC can be done as well.

Test Simulations is something I've been searching for and have found that there are already a few network administration tools that have been designed to test the security of devices linked up to the network, test speeds, etc. How in-depth they are implemented I'm unsure of. Unfortunately, though I am a network administrator currently deployed, it's against CENTCOM to connect any USB data holding device up to a military computer.

Quote: Original post by Christopher Loyd
the iPad can create, edit, and redistribute PDF files and word documents via other applications

LaTeX/LyX would be better than directly working on a PDF (it's the only thing I've found with a half-way decent means of editing equations). Is there an app for LaTeX? Also, as I said, I have my doubts about the keyboard. How is it creating/editing documents of any significance with an on screen keyboard (both in regard to screen space taken by the keyboard and typing wihtout proper keys)?

Also, a naive question about the lack of multitasking. What does this mean for referencing other documents? Can you have multiple tasks open but only one actively running? So, can I switch between a few open Word/PDF files and editing a presentation? Does the lack of multitasking just mean that I'll have to listen to music on my Fuze?

Quote:
Powerpoint presentations can be created, edited, and implemented on this device. It can also be used as a second monitor for viewing such.

The iPad is famous for a lack of connections. Is there something simpler than carrying a docking station to connect to a projector? (Hopefully something the size of those DVI to VGA converters.)

Quote:
Remote login to computers, both Mac and PC can be done as well.

With or without X forwarding or some sort of desktop sharing?

Quote:
Test Simulations is something I've been searching for and have found that there are already a few network administration tools that have been designed to test the security of devices linked up to the network, test speeds, etc.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Physics simulations. I worked in a materials modeling group and still work on the project. I don't expect to be able to run full simulations (that's what clusters are for) but I do run small systems (even really small is ok) for proof-of-concept or debugging. (With the issues I'm hearing about running your own code and in languages as exotic as Fortran, I'm not hopeful.)

This is also why X forwarding or VNC is useful. Instead of transfering several GBs of data, I run the visualization remotely.

Quote:
LaTeX/LyX would be better than directly working on a PDF (it's the only thing I've found with a half-way decent means of editing equations). Is there an app for LaTeX? Also, as I said, I have my doubts about the keyboard. How is it creating/editing documents of any significance with an on screen keyboard (both in regard to screen space taken by the keyboard and typing wihtout proper keys)?

Sorry, I'm unable to answer your question regarding LaTeX/LyX

Here's your answer with the keyboard:

Quote:
Also, a naive question about the lack of multitasking. What does this mean for referencing other documents? Can you have multiple tasks open but only one actively running? So, can I switch between a few open Word/PDF files and editing a presentation? Does the lack of multitasking just mean that I'll have to listen to music on my Fuze?

With the new updates to both the iPhone and iPad you can now listen to your iPod music in the background of applications. You also have commmon abilities such as copy/paste, but the iPad continues to not be able to run more than one app at a time.

Quote: The iPad is famous for a lack of connections. Is there something simpler than carrying a docking station to connect to a projector? (Hopefully something the size of those DVI to VGA converters.)

It looks is though they make a VGA converter cable for the iPad, this is also at the developer's discretion as to giving the ability to show the application on an extra monitor.

Quote:
With or without X forwarding or some sort of desktop sharing?

Sorry I wasn't clear. Physics simulations. I worked in a materials modeling group and still work on the project. I don't expect to be able to run full simulations (that's what clusters are for) but I do run small systems (even really small is ok) for proof-of-concept or debugging. (With the issues I'm hearing about running your own code and in languages as exotic as Fortran, I'm not hopeful.)

I believe this will answer these questions:

http://www.citrix.com/English/ps2/products/subfeature.asp?contentID=2300386

Quote: Original post by Christopher Loyd
Sorry, I'm unable to answer your question regarding LaTeX/LyX

A quick search didn't turn up anything promising. Sounds like no.

Quote:
Here's your answer with the keyboard:

That's helpful. Not as bad as I thought, but that's because I usually pictured it turned the other way. On the other hand, that makes me wonder about the size (especially an issue if I'm relying muscle-memory and not the feel of keys under my fingers). I'd still have to try it before buying it.

Quote:
With the new updates to both the iPhone and iPad you can now listen to your iPod music in the background of applications. You also have commmon abilities such as copy/paste, but the iPad continues to not be able to run more than one app at a time.

Just to make sure I understand correctly, "no multitasking" can mean one of two things to my (ignorant) ear:

1) Something like using ctrl-z and fg to switch between applications at a terminal. You can have several suspended in the background, but only one actively running.

2) Only one application, period. To switch to something else, you need to close the current one and open the next (if this is fast enough, this may be similar to (1) outside of editing documents).

If I'm understanding correctly, it works like (2) on the iPad, right? I'd be willing to work with (1) (e.g. I do something similar on my netbook with documents on different desktops), (2) is no good for me.

I think this also means no music for me since my little search made it sound like you can get ogg/flac support comes through new apps not new codecs. But, like I said, I could just use a separate player.

Quote:
It looks is though they make a VGA converter cable for the iPad, this is also at the developer's discretion as to giving the ability to show the application on an extra monitor.

By developer's discretion, you mean that some apps cannot be shown on a separate screen? Do you know how often this is an issue in practice? How often an app won't support this? Would be more the lack of a plus than a downside if netbooks had a similar limitation, but still not a big downside if PowerPoint, Word, and PDF documents are supported.

Quote:
I believe this will answer these questions:

http://www.citrix.com/English/ps2/products/subfeature.asp?contentID=2300386

I glanced over the site. It sounds like a separate solution to VNC or ssh with X forwarding, which are really my only options since I don't have control over what software is on the server. My little internet search did make it sound like there are VNC clients, so that could work.