Quote: Original post by frob
I know an ugly green truck that was nearly 25 years old with over 300K miles on it, with regular maintenance, that it never had serious mechanical problems.

Sounds like my dad's cars. When he buys a car he buys the manuals for them. I think he's owned two cars his whole life and he's like 47. It's really hard to have a car die on you when you're capable of tearing it apart and rebuilding it from scratch basically. Maintenance sucks though since he makes me help him. :P

Being able to maintain your vehicle is nice though. My brother and dad drove down to Florida in my Mom's jeep 4 months ago and when the power steering pump broke my dad was able to replace it in an hour because he had his emergency tools with him and was able to pick up a replacement at an auto parts store.

Speaking of cars though I need to buy another used car. My dad bought a car for a dollar from a relative and replaced the transmission. Lasted for two years before the new one locked up and I sold it to a junk yard for a nice profit. I have no real interest in cars so I'll get a nice clunker that runs and is very cheap. Honestly it's the way to go.

Read this Beat the four square.

When all my coworkers were blowing 60 grand on porches, I stuck to my used cars. I bought a car in cash for $3200 total 4 years ago, and have never had a problem with it (it's a Caddy DeVille, a pretty nice car). Before that I did something similar, and never had a problem there either. I had to replace it because it was totaled.

I've tried the whole "new cars" cost less to maintain thing, and it didn't pan out at all for me.

Personally, I've bought two new honda (a 2009 Fit, payed up front,a and a 2010 CR-V on a loan w/ 2% interest from the dealer), and I think both were a good purchase. For me, one big reason for the 2009 fit being a good purchase is simply that the previous model year versions were inferior in comfort etc. For the 2010 CR-V, buying a new 2009 instead or buying a used 2008-2009 wouldn't have saved even $1000 unless I haggled really, really well because the model is in high demand and thus prices are high on all recent new and used models.

The only regret I have is that I didn't know of a good repair shop when my car was in a wreck, and the one under the same company as the awesome dealer I bought from really, really sucked and I'm still trying to get my Fit properly and completely repaired 9 months later. If you buy a new car, talk to as many people as it takes to find a good collision-repair shop so that if you're in an accident you won't have to worry about your new car being in worse shape than a typical used one.

If you can afford it and plan on keeping a car until the wheels fall off then probably are better off buying new. If you keep a car for 10-15 years then it really doesn't matter much if its worth 30% less the second your drive it off the lot. New or used unless it was a really expensive car or some prized model then it won't be worth anything for a trade in 10 years from now anyway. If you don't see yourself keeping the car for a long time then buying used is probably a better option.

You are probably better off talking with your bank about the car you want and what kind of loan they would do for you. While you won't get any 0% APR deals in the long run a bank loan is probably going to be better. Will also give you a target number that you can deal with. Watch out for any kind of hidden service fees and if they won't deal with you then don't be afraid to walk out. There are other dealerships in the area with the same car.

Find the few models you want, get the Consumer Reports detailed price guide on the car ($30 per model, I think), find a few local dealers that offer the exact make and model of the car you want, then (assuming they are within driving distance), visit them and make sure they know that you know what the actual rate for the car is and that the other nearby dealers have the exact same car on their lot. You'll save thousands off of the sticker price. Don't even bargain. Say "this is what I want to pay" and be done with it.

Thanks for all the great replies. Its a lot to take in but luckily I realistically have two or 3 months before I actually make a purchase. Youre all saying that going in to the dealership with lots of information is a good thing, and I completely agree. Problem is, I'm a little short on info right now :)

Youve got me thinking new vs used again. The problem is, all the used car prices seem really high. Why would I pay $10,000 for a used 2002 model with 160,000kms and in questionable shape, when for just $18,000 I can get the brand new 2010 model with warranty and everything? If the used one was $4,000 then yeah that would be a no brainer. The other problem is I have zero car knowledge and no mechanic friends so I wouldnt know if I was getting ripped off with a lemon car.

Quote: Original post by Silvermyst
Say "this is what I want to pay" and be done with it.

This is exactly what I want to be able to do. I should have enough cash scraped together to buy an $18,000 car flat out, so that eliminates a lot of painful thinking about financing. The hard thing for me is figuring out my offer. If a new car has a sticker price of $18,000, and I go in saying "Heres $12,000 or I walk", I'll probably get laughed out of the dealership. On the other hand if I tell them my bottom line is $17,000, I'm worried they might quickly say "SOLD!" and I'll feel like I over paid later.

So I'm particularly interested in how to figure out the absolute lowest price they will go, and then add $500 or whatever to make it worth the salesmans time.

Silvermyst, it sounds like that consumer report thing is exactly what I need. If I figure out the absolute bottom line price of the car, and add maybe $1000, and then go in and offer that as my bottom line, do you think thats a reasonable thing to do?

Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant
This is exactly what I want to be able to do. I should have enough cash scraped together to buy an $18,000 car flat out, so that eliminates a lot of painful thinking about financing. The hard thing for me is figuring out my offer. If a new car has a sticker price of $18,000, and I go in saying "Heres $12,000 or I walk", I'll probably get laughed out of the dealership. On the other hand if I tell them my bottom line is $17,000, I'm worried they might quickly say "SOLD!" and I'll feel like I over paid later.

So I'm particularly interested in how to figure out the absolute lowest price they will go, and then add $500 or whatever to make it worth the salesmans time.

Silvermyst, it sounds like that consumer report thing is exactly what I need. If I figure out the absolute bottom line price of the car, and add maybe $1000, and then go in and offer that as my bottom line, do you think thats a reasonable thing to do?

That's one way to fail.

There is a wrong way and a right way to do that kind of demand.



You have everything favorable to you right now. It is a buyer's market. You have no immediate need. You can wait another month, or two, or five.

In short, you have absolutely no pressure.



Figure out exactly what you want. Call around to know that they actually have what you want. Ask them to allow you to have a mechanic look at it, and get it reviewed by (at least one) friendly mechanic.

The next step -- whether you like it or not -- is negotiation.

Go in, let the sales person do their job. You don't need to bother playing their game. Just sit there and be bored for 20 minutes while they do their little "If I do this, will you buy today?" speech. Politely ask "Is that the best you can do?" Don't sign or initial anything, even a "If we agree, I will buy today" form. Tell them to make an offer you can't refuse. Then more likely than not, you will refuse it.

Yes, it sucks, but that is their job. It is a stupid job. Nobody likes car salespeople. But they need to earn their paychecks, and that's what the company pays them to do. Be polite, no reason to be offensive. Bring a book, it helps keep the boredom down while they do their little dance to the back room.

After you've let them do their job for 20 minutes, politely you ask for a new sheet of paper. Politely tell them they have wasted 20 minutes, and that's all the time they will get from you. Write down: "Out the door $XX,XXX. No financing. Will buy today. Quit wasting my time. Final offer."



That allows the salesperson to report "I tried", it allows the back-office staff to watch you for 20 minutes and see that you refuse to play their game. (Yes, they have cameras. Duh.) They can show that they tried to haggle. They can show their boss that they are doing their job.

Then they can either accept or reject your offer gracefully.



If they don't accept it, remember that you are not in a rush. You presented what you believe to be a fair price. If they don't like it, slowly walk back to your current vehicle. They may come back after you trying to see if you are bluffing, or not. If you know that is fair and is what you will pay, then don't budge. Give them no more than five minutes of your time, then really leave.

They will try all the sneaky ways to add more. Do you want an extended warranty? Do you want this extra feature? The correct answer is "I'd love it. That doesn't change the X out the door we agreed on. Add all you want, I'm still only paying X."

Next they will hit you with taxes and fees. Everybody pays this. It is a standard fee. This is sales tax, you have to pay. This is a state license fee, we don't charge it.

The correct answer to all of those is: "What part of 'out the door cost' don't you understand? You agreed to X out the door, not X plus taxes and fees and extras."

Unfortunately society accepts that their job is to act like sharks, so be prepared to fight them. Society accepts that they will try to wear you down, and keep offering exceptions and denials and playing games until you give in. They are trying to get ANY concession at all (You agreed to x, but that didn't include tax and license fees) and you can decide to concede or not.

You are not in a rush to buy that particular vehicle, so don't be bullied in to a deal you don't like.

Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant
If I figure out the absolute bottom line price of the car, and add maybe $1000, and then go in and offer that as my bottom line, do you think thats a reasonable thing to do?

I think I ended up adding about $500. I have a feeling that as more people become aware of the fact that they should completely ignore the sticker price (from which you bargain down) car manufacturers will likely come up with new ways to give the dealerships kickbacks. After all, they're in the business of selling their product, sometimes to people that don't really need their particular product.

I pretty much went frob's route.

They asked me what number I was looking for.

X

How did you come up with that number?

Well, here's what you paid, here are some of the kickbacks you'll receive, and that's the amount of money I'm willing to pay for your services.

Can we meet in the middle?

No, I'm looking for X.

How about Y?

Nope, X.

Overall, a very pleasant experience. Felt empowering to have so much control over the negotiation. They acknowledged that they had more and more customers bargaining up from the customer's number as opposed to bargaining down from the dealer's number. The sales model for the product car, as it will for most any product, has changed as information became more widely available to its users.

You HAVE to be willing to just let the deal go if you don't get what you want. "All cars come pre-equipped with an additional security system. It's an extra X, but if you don't want it we'll take it out. But then you won't have your car today... it'll take a week." I did make a concession on that, in that I was willing to buy the additional security measures (which I'm glad I did) for $250 (down from the sticker value of $750).

Do you plan on letting them do your service for a number of years? If so, I think you can feel better about giving them a little less for having held the car on their lot on its way from manufacturer to your garage, as you'll end up giving them (a lot) more down the road anyway.

PS I'm VERY happy with the car. I think the research you do on your future car is likely even more important than the price negotiations.

Fair warning: This is going to be pretty Subaru specific, because that's what I ended up hunting down after trying everything else with and without a turbo under $40k over the last two years. Buy a Subaru. If you want a teeny car, test drive the Fit, SX4 and the Ford Fiesta (coming this summer).

If you're looking for a better idea on what cars are actually worth to the dealer (invoice price), you should check out Car Cost Canada. IIRC, it's fairly expensive. CR and Edmunds will give you an idea what the American invoice price is, which can often be different (for instance, Subaru Canada does some weird "double import" bullshit that causes double NAFTA duty and has completely different option packages to the USA).

I ended up buying a used car (2006 WRX), FWIW. I saved a lot of money, especially considering it's a low-volume car that keeps its value exceptionally well.

Another option is to hang around the lots and figure out when the company releases the 2011 model of the car you want, then negotiate on the 2010 models left on the lot. For Subaru, this happens around August each year. It is probably different for every automaker.

As you probably know, you can also do a US "grey market" import - many of them have recently become federalized after the Harper government harmonized our bumper standards with those of the USA. When I ran the numbers on a 2010 WRX, it came out to something like $7000 CAD savings including the cost of registration and import duty. It doesn't include the amount of time you spend getting the car, bringing it back or dealing with warranty crap from dealerships. If you are buying a low end car, you will not save money doing this (e.g. the base model Subaru Impreza is only $500 cheaper in Canada after importation, which realistically doesn't even pay for the gas/food/lodging on the way to get it).

My advice in the end is to really buy a used car. Would you learn basic mechanical skills or Google a "how to buy a used X" guide on the internet in exchange for $7000? Don't forget that you can always get any professional mechanic to do a full inspection - I used a dealership - if you need additional confirmation that the car in question is ship shape. Frequently, stuff that's broken is very obvious, especially on "appliance cars" like the Corolla. Push this button - did it work? - is it leaking fluids? - weird sounds when it warms up from being cold?

Insurance is also significantly cheaper with a used car, especially if you're looking for something sportier than a driving appliance. In that case, you want to hunt down local enthusiast forums and peruse their "for sale" forums. I screwed around with Craigslist/Kijiji for months and had nothing but trashy high-mileage cars; I tried the local Subaru club forum and ended up looking at four cars in three weeks, two of which I tried to buy.

[Edited by - Ravuya on April 26, 2010 2:23:34 PM]