I think I would find myself more sympathetic to your cause if you didn't go on about "the New Aristocracy" and "taking from the working-class" and "disturbing capitalism" - I'm almost tempted to ask if you'd like to turn Canada into a Communist state. I think anti-Olympic folks have some good points. With that said, however, property damage is as far as I know illegal, and anyone who participates in activities intended to damage property (be it corporate or that of an innocent bystander) should be arrested. And there were some arrests that day. Not enough, in my opinion, unless they were the only ones who were breaking shit.

Don't get me wrong, peaceful protest I am perfectly fine with and even encourage, even if I am getting sick of activists and activism in general. But the moment you cross the line into violet protest is the minute that you lose my support. Especially if you do it in a mask as some of the protesters were. That's just cowardly. You've got the balls to stand up to "The Man" and fight for what you believe in... in a mask? You've not got balls enough to fight for what you believe in and have people know it was you? Silly and cowardly, in my opinion. If you're willing to fight for your ideals in a violent way, you should be prepared to meet the consequences for your ideals. Hell, maybe it's even martyrdom in a way.

That about sums up my opinion of that protest, actually - a bunch of kids standing up to fight "The Man". Maybe that's not the original reasons behind the protests - hell, I think anti-Olympic protesters actually have some legitimate points, but consider the ages of the people involved; they're all fairly young, late teens given what I'd heard. Maybe that isn't true of all of them (in fact, I know that it isn't), but it fits with what I know about my generation. Maybe it isn't conscious, but I'll bet there's some of that sentiment there. Do you think we're really old enough to think for ourselves? I'm almost 20 years old, and I know from experience how easily my own opinion can be altered by outside parties. And I consider myself amongst the more skeptical folks when it comes to certain issues! "Misguided adolescents" is definitely right. I've been watching my peers get sucked into this sort of stuff for years. I see it happen again and again on all sorts of issues, not only this one.

I for one have you rated at neutral for being willing to do something about something you don't like in this world (which is admirable), but only at neutral for exercising poor judgement in what that something is. If you want to protest something, and the media really is "repressing" you, then don't be stupid and do something that you know will incur that "repression." In fact, I don't really see the point in protesting at this point at all. Years and years ago, when this was all getting off the ground, that was the time to protest. Wht's the point in protesting now when you know that the media isn't going to give you the time of day and the Olympics are going to be over in less than a month anyway? This will all be over then, anyway.

Quote:
Fair enough. In regards to HBC, do you defend the indigenous people's rights to defend the land HBC illegally stole from them? And the further destruction of native lands for the Olympics, contrary to our own laws that state land cannot be ceded without a treaty?

1. The fact that the HBC of today is not quite the same HBC of yesterday aside, that was a long time ago. What's done is done and cannot be undone. The people in charge today are not the same people in charge then. I don't see anyone protesting the Roman conquest of Gaul or Alexander of Macedonia's exploits around the eastern Mediterranean.

2. The First Nations have endorsed the games, if I remember correctly.

3. In my opinion, if you're going to protest something, at least focus on one thing. Are you protesting the Olympics, the education system, the economic system we live under, or the European conquest of the Americas? Or are you just protesting "the system" in general? I have a sneaking suspicion that it is the latter. Protesting everything (ie., in my view, protesting just to protest) makes you look whiny and doesn't generate sympathy for your cause(s).

edit: Also, was there this much protesting going on during the Calgary Olympics on these issues? 'Cause, uh, technically Calgary is founded on "stolen" native land just like Vancouver (and every city in the Americas) is.

[Edited by - Oberon_Command on February 16, 2010 10:17:33 PM]

Canadian authorities detained Amy Goodman during her visit to Vancouver a few months ago. They thought she was there to expose various shenanigans behind the Olympics. She didn't know what they were talking about then but she's now been following the issue closely.

Vancouver Community Activist Am Johal Condemns Use of Public Money to Subsidize International Olympic Committee at Expense of Basic City Services

Olympic Resistance: Indigenous Groups, Anti-Poverty Activists, and Civil Liberties Advocates Protest 2010 Winter Games in Vancouver

Quote: Original post by Oberon_Command
1. The fact that the HBC of today is not quite the same HBC of yesterday aside, that was hundreds of years ago. What's done is done and cannot be undone. I don't see anyone protesting the Roman conquest of Gaul or Alexander of Macedonia's exploits around the eastern Mediterranean.

I didn't realize injustice had an expiry date.

Quote:
2. The First Nations have endorsed the games, if I remember correctly.

Millions of dollars were given to the "Four Host Nations" - specific bands who have endorsed the games as a result of government sponsorship; not the First Nations.

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3. In my opinion, if you're going to protest something, at least focus on one thing. Are you protesting the Olympics, the education system, the economic system we live under, or the European conquest of the Americas? Or are you just protesting "the system" in general? I have a sneaking suspicion that it is the latter. Protesting just to protest makes you look whiny and doesn't generate sympathy for your cause(s).

I can only answer for myself which is that my direct connection to the DTES community (when I first moved to Vancouver I was working with InSite people producing an educational film to prevent the spread of disease among those who use needle drugs) has made me aware that people are unjustly marginalized. If there exists $6billion of Opulence and Party to go around, there's gotta be a few bucks to build some cheap apartments - rather than gentrifying the existing buildings in that area and pushing out the local community. People typically counter with "People are homeless through their own fault" - which is patently false, especially given BCs history deinstitualization of mental patients.

That, combined with the draconian security forces (I have personally witnessed a group of four officers walk down Carral street, ticketing homeless people simply for having shopping carts full of stuff) are what lead me to protest "The Olympics" - There are a lot of reasons, and every individual has their own; the shared sentiment is simply that The Olympics represent something overwhelmingly negative, not positive.

Quote: Original post by djz

Quote: Original post by Oberon_Command
1. The fact that the HBC of today is not quite the same HBC of yesterday aside, that was hundreds of years ago. What's done is done and cannot be undone. I don't see anyone protesting the Roman conquest of Gaul or Alexander of Macedonia's exploits around the eastern Mediterranean.

I didn't realize injustice had an expiry date.

Your ability to actually do something useful about it does. If I showed up at a protest rally carrying a sign saying, "Down with the Roman Empire!" I'd get laughed out of the city, would I not? I really do not see any point in protesting things that happened before anyone living today was born. I can understand protesting things that are happening today, but really, wouldn't it be better just to go out and help people yourself than wait for the government to do something about it? If the protesters on the 13th were doing that as you say they were, then that's great, but they should be doing just that instead of breaking shit. It's the breaking shit that gets them their negative reputation and marginalizes their cause, because breaking shit is not in any way constructive.

Also, congrats to Maelle Ricker, the Canadian gold medal winner in Women's Snowboard Cross!

[Edited by - Oberon_Command on February 16, 2010 10:24:59 PM]

For some reason, I've got the Cat Stevens song "Father and Son" stuck in my head, now...

Quote: Original post by Oberon_Command
edit: Also, was there this much protesting going on during the Calgary Olympics on these issues? 'Cause, uh, technically Calgary is founded on "stolen" native land just like Vancouver (and every city in the Americas) is.

Calgary is a city full of conservative drunken cowboys. Vancouver is a city full of liberal stoner hippies. It's just the makeup of the cities.



As for the protests themselves. I'm all for protest, I think it's a healthy expression of democracy. My constructive criticism on the current protests is:

1) It seems everyone is protesting random shit. Get organized. Get a clear message (don't protest a million things at once, hold separate protests for different issues). No one will take notice if they don't know what the fuck you're trying to say.

2) The people hiding their faces to try to get away with smashing property are simply vandals. If you're going to protest something, show your fucking face. These people have no credibility. People who change history (even through violence) are rarely nameless.

Quote: Original post by djz

Quote: Original post by Talroth
1. Household debt may be the highest in history, but you can't blame anyone other than the idiots who buy crap they don't need. If you are in debt and have a flat screen TV, then I'm not going to do anything but laugh at you.

I've spent the last three years of my life paying down tens of thousands of dollars of debt for my education. You have to spend money to make money. What happens if you have no money? You go into debt.

If I hadn't lucked out and gotten a decent job in the IT industry with no education in that field, I would not have been able to make headway on my debt. Others have not been so lucky. Friends of mine who studied Homeopathy, Forestry, Electrical Engineering. Half the people I work with have degrees in fields completely unrelated to what they do, and are still paying off student loans well into their thirties.

I agree, those who got into their financial difficulties through superfluous purchases should deal with the consequences; but there are those who are sinking further and further into debt simply because there aren't jobs that they can do and be able to support themselves and their families on. This is symptomatic of a major problem with how things are structured.

I will leave university with about $15000 in debt, more than I wanted but I had a few summers of being jerked around on short contract work.

Several of my friends from high school went to trade schools, left school with money in their pockets, and then came back home a few years later and bought a house. With Cash.

"You have to spend money to make money." is about one of the dumbest excuses for unmanageable debt. If you couldn't have afforded school on modest debt loads, then you should have taken a different career path. I'm sorry but we can't all be millionaires and have it mean anything.

So OP, I can protest your protest by coming to your house and busting all the windows and kicking in the doors right? I'm just exercising my civil liberties after all.

Alex is on Fire played the Yaletown Live Site hier soir.... all of five notes where sounded out on the drums apparently before everyone trampled the front barricade... The dance that ensued by this six foot three Sensor Guard was pretty impressive and went something like this "I don't mosh I dance if I moshed it would go something like this..... "

"> Equivalent Dance it was cute... she was well prepared with glittery lip gloss...

Needless to say she held up the crowd from getting on stage and aided in calming everyone down as six individuals where sent to hospital; one with a seriously and disturbingly broken leg. The site was quickly locked down and I missed my fireworks /me shakes fist. There is rumor that the band may attempt to play once again tonight for all those who are daring. I might show up early to get a front seat :D if they make me that is...

Quote: Original post by dashurc

Quote: Original post by Oberon_Command
edit: Also, was there this much protesting going on during the Calgary Olympics on these issues? 'Cause, uh, technically Calgary is founded on "stolen" native land just like Vancouver (and every city in the Americas) is.

Calgary is a city full of conservative drunken cowboys. Vancouver is a city full of liberal stoner hippies. It's just the makeup of the cities.

And the Calgary games were held in 1988 long before the ravages of neo-liberal economics began to manifest. It was the last winter games at which the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia competed. Beyond those differences, there still was protest at the Calgary games: Case Study: Calgary Winter Olympics 1988 and Lubicon Cree, Lubicon Indian Protest Hits Saskatchewan, Indian Band Protests in Calgary; Battle for Land Rights Threatens to Mar City's World Image (WaPo Feb 27, 1988).