Hi there,

Why don't you take advantage of the Unreal Development Kit ( UDK ) - I noticed you're using some textures from UT2K in your demo.

Making use of UDK would help you overcome the tech-mountain you're facing now. BUT more importantly I'd imagine you could find your much needed artists/team inside their pre-existing community, and they'd be familiar with the tech already. Their level design tools will help you improve the detail in your map geometry which I can see being an issue in your current demo.

They recently adjusted the terms to make it more 'indi-friendly'...the website for the UDK is here - Unreal Development Kit homepage

*NOTE: the UDK does not come with source code, but if you're making a "standard" FPS game with nothing requiring core changes you should be fine. It's essentially an expanded set of mod-tools for the UE3 tech.

Anyways - I'm just trying to provide alternatives to throwing in the towel, sorry if you've already evaluated this option. I've never used UDK, but it seems it could help you out.

Thanks! I have considered that, but I don't think our engine/technology is the problem (or is it?). I think our primary problem is the total lack of finished art resources - hell, even the "finished" textures aren't a good representation of what I want to go for. I'm just a programmer/game designer, and unfortunately my skills don't extend far enough to do models, animation, and textures (even me making the levels was a stretch - they kind of suck). So, because I don't have every skill necessary to make a game, and my chances of finding good art help are slim to none, it looks like I'm pretty much screwed.

Quote: Original post by Carnevil_
But that's the problem - I can't model/texture/animate (the game isn't supposed to look like Quake - it just does because of the placeholder textures), and getting other people to actually make a commitment to this and finish it just isn't going to happen. I guess we're at a roadblock that can't be overcome.

It's typical, though: people don't want to lend money to something unproven, but once you've proven yourself and no longer need money, investors trip over themselves trying to give you money. It's certainly not unique to the game industry.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys. I'll still see if anyone is interested (though I doubt it), and then just pack it up after that. I guess dreams don't come true.

Welcome to the world of indie developement. Its not all sunshine and roses. Besides a MMO a FPS is probably about the worst game to try and make it as a indie developer. Especially as it seems your the only person making the game. You would be much better off starting with much smaller casual games. If you can make some kind of track record you are going to have a much better shot at a company taking you seriously.

As Tom said that game would be a good portfolio piece to get a job with. If you have made that from scratch it would certainly give you some bonus points when applying for a job. As a portfolio piece your current art is fine.

Have you even tried posting a help wanted ad here for some modellers? Given the progress you have made you ought to be able to find some people to work for free or some future profits.

Quote: Original post by Ravyne
On the PC platform, this would be more of a budget title. Budget publishers might be interested, and there's always virtual store-front's like Steam -- If you have a game that looks like Quake II/III with great gameplay, interesting level design, and fun multi-player, I don't see any reason this wouldn't sell on steam with a budget-friendly pricetag -- say 9.99 - 14.99.

This is a good idea - the trouble is budget publishers don't fund budget games. They expect you to get them made yourself, then they sign them up.

Quote: Original post by Carnevil_
Ravyne: Yes, something in the $10-20 range (like Torchlight) is what I had in mind. This isn't some mega-budget "let's spend $10m on CGI cutscenes" type of game. It's a game that knows it's a game and that its primary job is to be fun. I'm all for finishing it up and releasing it through Steam, but having all of graphics/models/sounds/music done by volunteers is a pretty dismal proposition.

I really wish I could suggest an easier way to do it but sadly there isn't one. You have chosen a really difficult path (trying to make an FPS without the necessary experience/support) and there isn't a short cut. The easy way to do it is to start with smaller projects - that is what id, DMA Design and all the other guys who are now big and successful did. By trying to leap straight to an FPS you missed the experience they gained on smaller games and the trust that they were able to build up with publishers until the publishers were willing to fund them.

The vast majority of hobby projects like this fail but you have already done way more than most do. You have an engine and a demo; keep working and keep recruiting new people and you may be able to get something finished.

Suggestions: make a small one or two level game - put all your effort into a small but better game, instead of trying to make a big one you don't have the resources for. Release the small game at a budget price then work on more levels.

Alternatively use the engine to make something a little different - a physics based first person shooting puzzle game (again just a couple of levels) where you shoot/push things around in order to get them to fall onto/off other things and trigger domino style chain reactions etc. Something which uses the tech but doesn't need to meet the insanely high production levels of a traditional FPS.

I can't just make something smaller, or a different type of game. There's still the problem of me not being able to make art. I can't overcome that by simply reducing the scope. Plus, I doubt that anyone would buy a very small, casual game (let alone enough to build off of its success). People tend to expect those sorts of things for free now.

Asking for help isn't going to work either. The work load is simply too much for someone who isn't completely dedicated to it. People have other priorities (school, work, social lives), and a project like this will always take a back seat to all of that, and eventually the people just lose interest. Nothing of any quality can be achieved like this.

I don't know your life situation at all, but a limit in scope may open up other possibilities. Take a look at gratuitous space battles. It took one person a year to put together, all the art was done by contractors.

Quote: Original post by Carnevil_
I can't just make something smaller, or a different type of game. There's still the problem of me not being able to make art. I can't overcome that by simply reducing the scope.

No but you can drastically reduce the scale of the problem to a size where a volunteer team can do it. Will it be easy? No - but at least it is possible (which getting publisher funding isn't).

Quote: Plus, I doubt that anyone would buy a very small, casual game (let alone enough to build off of its success). People tend to expect those sorts of things for free now.

Don't believe the hype - free is not the only price. If you make something fun someone will buy it. Alternatively give up and waste all your work to date.

Quote: Asking for help isn't going to work either. The work load is simply too much for someone who isn't completely dedicated to it.

No it isn't. Not if you change direction as above.

Quote: .... People have other priorities (school, work, social lives), and a project like this will always take a back seat to all of that, and eventually the people just lose interest. Nothing of any quality can be achieved like this.

Hard? Hell yes - impossible? No.

Quote: Original post by Carnevil_
I can't just make something smaller, or a different type of game. There's still the problem of me not being able to make art. I can't overcome that by simply reducing the scope. Plus, I doubt that anyone would buy a very small, casual game (let alone enough to build off of its success). People tend to expect those sorts of things for free now.

Asking for help isn't going to work either. The work load is simply too much for someone who isn't completely dedicated to it. People have other priorities (school, work, social lives), and a project like this will always take a back seat to all of that, and eventually the people just lose interest. Nothing of any quality can be achieved like this.

Casual game sales are on the order of like a billion dollars. Even if Flash games are free to the user its not uncommon for them to be bought for a few hundred to a few thousand to be put on a site. Casual games on the portals actually get funded as well. Though that is generally to established studios.

You aren't going to know if you can get any help unless you ask for it. You have a lot more progress done then most people who ask for help. And sorry, unless you got funding in the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars so you can hire a dozen artists to work fulltime you aren't going to get all the art done for a FPS done in a short amount of time. This is another reason why a FPS is a bad indie choice. The volume of art is way more then one or two people can handle.

I can't think of any other genre that I could do that *wouldn't* require an extensive amount of art resources. Even a sidescroller like Trine, or a fighter like Blazblue would all require a serious amount art for HUD graphics, menus, 3D worlds, characters, etc. - it'd be comparable to the scope of the FPS we're going for. Even for World of Goo, which was made by two people... I would imagine that one of the two guys was an artist. Maybe I'm really dumb, but I can't envision a game that makes use of what I've made already that doesn't need a lot of custom art that doesn't completely suck.

jtagge75: I have asked for help. Those models in the video were actually made for this project. However, that modeler is now too busy with school to participate (much of the work he did was done over the summer). The team has had several members come and go over the past couple of years, and none of it has ever really worked out. I have no reason to believe things would be any different in the future.

I would say: Recruit, recruit, recruit.

I know how increadibly difficult it is to get an artist who's truly on-board, but once you have just one you can build a team around them. They ought to have the skills to lead less-experienced volunteers, and once they generate just enough polished content to throw a really tight demo/trailer that shows your vision of the world, then other's will likely follow.

In fact, I would say that the most important thing your first skilled artist should do is just that: Create a small section of the game (or maybe something revealing the backstory of the game) with high polish -- enough to create 30-60 seconds of footage that can be put up on your website and youtube to use as a recruiting tool. That's your hook, the rest is just marketting your team as the cool and successful team to join.

There are lots of communities out there -- Here, 3D forums, Mod communities; so write up your best pitch, show the best you have, share the features of the engine, and the concept for the game (but be willing to let the artist put their spin on it, within reason, as that is a huge motivator for volunteer work). Offer the right candidate, after some time to prove their worth, the "lead <whatever> artist" title, and a commensurate share of profits/stake in the company/whatever you are offering. If you can afford to do so, and this is what it takes to get that first polished piece, offer up whatever money you can -- I think you'll find a world of difference between "Please volunteer" and "I can offer up $100 for each of 3 milestones reached to the right candidate.", just be sure you weed out the folks that are only in it to make a quick buck.