Quote: Original post by Hodgman

Quote: Original post by DaveMS
Whether the war is winnable is another matter - after 7 years we still haven't found Osama Bin Laden, and the taliban seem to have an endless supply of combatants willing to blow them self up for the cause.

This actually makes you wonder if the USA has deliberately created a real Emmanuel Goldstein out of Bin Laden... After all intelligence agencies in Pakistan and several European countries have confirmed his death, but still we're told that the bogeyman is still out there, plotting to get us, until we win the "war on terror" (which is never-ending, as terrorism is a *response* to war).

I don't think Pakistani intelligence is a credible source of information on the subject of OBL. Given the ISI's involvement in building up the Taliban as a regional ally against India, it might claim that OBL is dead as part of an effort to get the US to leave Afghanistan.

As far as the Emmanuel Goldstein angle goes, the US Senate just released a report about the failure to capture OBL at Tora Bora in 2001. The short of it is that Donald Rumsfeld and Gen. Franks refused to commit more troops to the effort, specifically troops to block OBL from escaping to Pakistan which is exactly what happened. My gut tells me that Rumsfeld didn't really want to catch OBL, at least not catch him in 2001, because catching OBL would eliminate a major reason for invading Iraq. The UK inquiry into the invasion of Iraq has revealed that the US and UK began preparing to invade Iraq in the early months of 2002. At the time many people knew the invasion of Iraq was a foregone conclusion, but now the unofficial truth has become the official truth. At any rate, having OBL on the loose is almost like giving the warmongers in the Pentagon a "go to war anywhere" card.



Regarding the OP and the question of the meaning of war, here are a few references to check out.

War Is a Force that Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges, Wars Are Made, Not Born (NYT Book Review) PBS Interviews Hedges

Why We Fight directed by Eugene Jarecki. (download) Why We Fight - Reflection

More immediately, President Obama unveils his plans for Afghanistan tonight. Tune into CNN, 7 p.m. EST. If he does his job correctly, he'll answer your question about the mission in Afghanistan.

Quote: Original post by zer0wolf

Quote: Original post by DaveMS
The invasion of Iraq was to displace Saddam Hussein and find weapons of mass destruction. No WMD were found (although a large quantity of oil was), but Saddam was toppled and a new Iraqi government put in place.

Can't argue too much with anything that has been posted in this thread except for one of the things said here - weapons of mass destruction. I know this is (at least used to be) a touchy subject, but it kind of depends on how you define WMD. I have friends who saw chemical weapons in Iraq.

Where those the weapons made before the 1991 Gulf War or the weapons Rumsfeld sold Saddam? Inquiry told Iraq could not 'use' chemical weapons (25 November 2009)

I think the definition of WMD was made purposefully vague during the run up to the invasion so that people tasked with selling the war could do so without giving away the lie, that is, while keeping a straight face. I think they knew full well that when they said WMD the public heard nuclear weapon (the only true WMD), but if they were pressed on it, they could point to chemical weapons and their use against the Kurds during the Iran-Iraq war.

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Not helpful for who? Depends entirely on what your agenda is, right?
Furthermore, Iraq invaded Iran and bombed civilians, calling it "fighting Islamic fundamentalism" is quite inaccurate, don't you think?

I understand this might be a sensitive issue, but I think US aid started only after Iran has pushed Iraq back into its own territory, and there became the threat of the Gulf area being overrun by fundamentalists. US relation with Iraq were very cool before the war and only started to warm up after the revolution in Iran.

As to bombing civilians, of course it is regrettable, but I think both sides occasionally took to bombing each others cities, as neither could achieve anything remarkable on the battle-field.

From what I've read about the war, initially Saddam's intentions were very modest (to give Tehran a very strong sign to stop them from attempting to overthrow his régime and occupy some territories along the border) together with the strategy designed not to upset the enemies too much, and things got out of hand only when his situation became desperate.

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Godwin's Law :P

There are plenty of historic figures to use, but Hitler is an icon. :)

The real truth about why may never be known. Nobody knows why we went to Iraq and Bush made dinner jokes "No weapons of mass destruction over here" (crowd and him laugh).

I saw a PBS video with a woman reporter investigating the Taliban in Pakistan and it was insane. The middle east is at war with itself. Why we are going there and what we will do, I really don't know. I mean you will never see an invasion on US soil from these countries, so the only thing I can say is we are at war because of a couple hi-jackers got through our security.

Problem is though that we are in a 'fake' war in my opinion. A real fight is what Russia did when they invaded Georgia. You fight and tell civilians GTFO or your fault. In Afghanistan we pay for every house door we break and are trying to win the hearts of civilians. So if we aren't in a real war, because I see no reason too, I think we should leave.

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Problem is though that we are in a 'fake' war in my opinion. A real fight is what Russia did when they invaded Georgia. You fight and tell civilians GTFO or your fault. In Afghanistan we pay for every house door we break and are trying to win the hearts of civilians. So if we aren't in a real war, because I see no reason too, I think we should leave.

Someone commented the Soviet propaganda, saying something like:

"There is no more war, but the fight for peace has become so intense that not a stone will be left upon a stone."

I may be mistaken, but I thought we were not at war with Afghanistan country and people, but rather with terrorists in Afghanistan?

And yes, wars are won or lost by winning or not winning the hearts of the civilians more often than not.

There's also something called propaganda (it's basically the thing that makes you think not only did Russia have a right to roll into Georgia, but it was also justified in doing so regardless of civilian casualties it caused).

The meaning of war is to prepare ourselves to fight the Goa'uld.

It so obvious...

Quote: Original post by visitor

Quote: For all of his faults, Saddam Hussein was at least able to uphold law and order in Iraq. Car bombings, insurgency and terrorism were basically unheard of in his day and the punishments were brutal for all those who dared try it.

On the other hand repressions on Kurds and other ethnic and religious groups was daily.

Whole ethnic and religious groups are repressed, killed and forcibly segregated in other countries, e.g. Israel (which does have WMDs), but I don't see the USA taking up the moral high-ground against them and putting in place invasions and "regime changes"... Obviously there's more reasons behind invading Iraq than the repression. FYI, over half a million civilians have died in Iraq over the past few decades thanks to the USA's actions (military and economic) against Saddam, which makes the Kurds plight look kind of insignificant in comparison.

Quote: I may be mistaken, but I thought we were not at war with Afghanistan country and people, but rather with terrorists in Afghanistan?

"The terrorists" in Afghanistan are actually the previous government... A government that the USA supported and trained once upon a time... A government that was portrayed as helping James Bond fight those commie bastards in American cinema...

Quote: There's also something called propaganda (it's basically the thing that makes you think not only did RussiaAmerica have a right to roll into GeorgiaIraq, but it was also justified in doing so regardless of civilian casualties it caused).

^^ Funny how that works ;)

[Edited by - Hodgman on December 2, 2009 5:20:01 AM]

Quote: Original post by owl
The meaning of war is to prepare ourselves to fight the Goa'uld.

It so obvious...

I agree, we must all prepare otherwise we're all doomed!

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Whole ethnic and religious groups are repressed, killed and forcibly segregated in other countries, e.g. Israel (which does have WMDs), but I don't see the USA taking up the moral high-ground against them and putting in place invasions and "regime changes"... Obviously there's more reasons behind invading Iraq than the repression. FYI, over half a million civilians have died in Iraq over the past few decades thanks to the USA's actions (military and economic) against Saddam, which makes the Kurds plight look kind of insignificant in comparison.

Quite obviously. I was only protesting against the notion that Saddam was a particularly good guy and it would have been better to let him be. (This part of the world is just rather messy. One might never be able to export "democratic" ideals, but the failure to do so does not justify dictatorship.)

And most likely US wouldn't be the target of terrorists if not for their committal for Israel.

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^^ Funny how that works ;)

Yes, presenting these things both to the home and international public is a very important thing, and you naturally can't expect all truth from it.

(So what came out of the Georgian war? There doesn't seem to be much news. So, Russia got to keep South Ossetia de facto with a straight face, to the point that people suggest that as an example how foreign affairs should be conducted? Yet, South Ossetia is recognized only by Russia, Nicaragua and Venezuela? And we remember the Georgian president as a ridiculous tie-eating, yet blood-thirsty American puppet?)

Quote: Original post by dpadam450
Problem is though that we are in a 'fake' war in my opinion. A real fight is what Russia did when they invaded Georgia. You fight and tell civilians GTFO or your fault. In Afghanistan we pay for every house door we break and are trying to win the hearts of civilians. So if we aren't in a real war, because I see no reason too, I think we should leave.

Right,it's a typical fake war,rather closer to money stealing.The Soviet war in Afganistan was much more cheaper and bloody.
I wish your soldiers to stay alive,

">but all the same...
What about Soviet invasion in Georgia- i beg a pardon ,but the most effective propoganda is simply a

"> truth .