I was trying to think of an idea that would keep my classes balanced as close as possible. I had the idea of assigning "points" or whatever to each skill. Say each class starts with 20 points on each stat. Or weapons, you could give low level weapons 3 points, next level 6, and so on. So you take the character base stats which could be: Attack :20 Defense :20 Stealth :20 Precision :20 Agility :20 Strength :20 ----------------- Lets make this one be a warrior. They wouldn't have much stealth, maybe a little less than average precision and agility. But high Attack, Defense and Strength. So that would look maybe something like: Attack :36 Defense :29 Stealth :5 Precision :15 Agility :10 Strength :25 --------------------- Or however you wish to distribute the points, but everyone ends up with the same amount of points everywhere. Would this work? Is this system in practice now? Or am I just thinking to simply.

That system is in use in a lot of RPGs. In D&D you have a point budget for your starting stats where it costs more the higher you go. That way, you can be average in everything and very good in 1 thing or good at 2-3 things and average at the rest. In Diablo that system is in use when you assign your 5 stat points at level up. In WoW, it uses(or used to) a similar point budget for their items. Depending on the level and rarity, they have a budget which gets spent in a similar fashion than in D&D to produce stats.

I'm sure pretty much every RPG uses a similar system. The balancing comes from making sure no stat overpowers other stats.

I've been thinking lately that the concept of "points" is decades old--it predates computer games entirely-- and it's totally unnecessary now. If I go to the gym, I don't leave their and access a menu that allows me to allocate my new strength points. If I want to fight, I don't select a "class" and add some points either, I go learn how to do it, and what I DO determines what I "am."

So why not just have a character who starts out with generic stats, and depending on the player's style, points are added as they practice doing things. Big axes make them stronger and better with axes. Wands make them sharper and better with magic, dodging around makes them faster, so so it goes... there are point underlying everything, but the player never sees that.

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Original post by Tiblanc I'm sure pretty much every RPG uses a similar system. The balancing comes from making sure no stat overpowers other stats.

This.

The points approach only works if all the different stats you spend points on are balanced and equally useful. If they aren't, you get trivial 'dump' stats - which players will intentionally take the lowest value they can in so they have more to spend on other points. Charisma and similar stats often end up being dump stats in CRPGs, as they are often underpowered.

Even then, simply having an equal number of points distributed across the stats does not guarantee that two classes will be balanced. A class that scatters the bonus points across unrelated stats will likely be less powerful than a class that focuses them on a narrow range of stats that relate to a particular area of gameplay (such as combat or spellcasting, for example).

Balance is very very difficult to get right, as it runs through the entire rulesystem, and can be completely thrown off by emergent behaviour that the rulesystem designer never even imagined. Good luck!

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Original post by Pete Michaud So why not just have a character who starts out with generic stats, and depending on the player's style, points are added as they practice doing things. Big axes make them stronger and better with axes. Wands make them sharper and better with magic, dodging around makes them faster, so so it goes... there are point underlying everything, but the player never sees that.

The trouble with these kinds of systems is that they're really open to abuse. Oblivion is a good example: you can max out certain skills/stats by standing in a corner, placing heavy objects on your keyboard and watching TV for half an hour.

You could argue of course, that if that's how players want to play, then it's fine. And I'd agree with you - but at the same time, I'd rather encourage players to do fun things in the game, rather than rewarding them for completely mindless grinding.

I relatively recently had an idea for a mix of sorts, a combination of the "use attribute to level them up" and the "every level, you can distribute more stats."

Here's the idea:
similar to the use system, every time you use an ability/weapon/whatever, it gets marked. And also the related things get marked. So using a great axe gives you a great-axe point, an axe point, and an eight of a strength point (numbers are arbitrary). It would also feature an xp system. Whenever you level, upgrades are distributed according to usage.

On level up, you would get some number of upgrades distributable, determined by level. They would then be split into the respective sections.So in the aforementioned example, you might get +8 great-axe, +8 axe, and +1 strength on level, if all you did was whack people with great-axes, if you got 17 upgrades to distribute.

Problems:
This might not scale well. People would be locked to using axes if they used them for the first few levels, with little or no room to change. Maybe some sort of respect option could alter this.
Definitely favors those who grind, using only one type of weapon/spell/whatever.

Positives:
none of that standing in a corner afk and getting awesome shenanigans.
growth feels organic.
Evolution will be gradual, and the character will feel in control of their path.

Thoughts?

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Original post by Sandman Quote: Original post by Pete Michaud So why not just have a character who starts out with generic stats, and depending on the player's style, points are added as they practice doing things. Big axes make them stronger and better with axes. Wands make them sharper and better with magic, dodging around makes them faster, so so it goes... there are point underlying everything, but the player never sees that. The trouble with these kinds of systems is that they're really open to abuse. Oblivion is a good example: you can max out certain skills/stats by standing in a corner, placing heavy objects on your keyboard and watching TV for half an hour. You could argue of course, that if that's how players want to play, then it's fine. And I'd agree with you - but at the same time, I'd rather encourage players to do fun things in the game, rather than rewarding them for completely mindless grinding.

I've only played morrowind so I don't know how much they improved the system but its not just that its easily abused, its that you can't get anywhere without abusing it. Fighting a boss and chopping up a few rats give the same amount of skill advancement and completing quests only gives you more gold thats practically worthless since nobody will sell you anything good unless you join their guild, do a ton of fetch quests and grind your skills up.

And let's not forget that it's not always best to start out as a plucky youth with no abilities and experience his entire life from age 5 until he's crowned Emperor of Tau Ceti. A lot of us want to start out as a character with above-average magical ability or big muscles, and a class system provides templates that forego the initial peasant grind and help ensure balance among the classes.

I love me some point redistribution, but linear character growth is good, too. Kengo II for Playstation 2 delighted me with its system of minigame stat training, real-fight stat advancement and malleable skillpoint cap.

I should clarify. The points would not be available for redistribution by the players. This is just deciding how to set up base-stats/weapons/armor to make sure that no one character or item is hugely more powerful than someone or something else at the same level.

The same problem still persists: making sure each stat is equally useful for every point spent in it.

For example, WoW. In the first year, everyone was going for attack power items. The reason was that for items of equal level, one with attack power gave you bigger bonuses than one with strength. This was because both stats pretty much only affected damage, but attack power was better. They used a budget point distribution like you want to use, but because strength had little use outside determining damage and attack power was much better in that regard point for point, it was unbalanced toward attack power.

You could design a melee class and ranged class using the point system, but if strength is a stronger mechanic than dexterity, then the melee class will be overpowered even if they have the same total stat points.

Clearly, we need a damage formula to be able to analyze the proper distribution for balance.

What class prefer Attack? Physical Range
What class prefer Defense? Physical Melee - Warrior
What class prefer Stealth? Physical Melee - Thief
What class prefer Precision? Physical Range - Archer, & Magical Range - Mage
What class prefer Agility? Physical Melee - Thief
What class prefer Strength?

Generic Classes of typically RPG:
Physical Melee - Tank
Physical Range - support
Magical Melee - secondary DPS
Magical Range - primary DPS
Healer Class - Leader/healer

The system can work if you can create a set of damage formulas that maintain the balance.