Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by Codeka
It is intellectually stimulating

Programming is intellectually stimulating too, but that's not reason enough to force everyone to learn how to program, right? So why is it different with a foreign language?

Oh, I see, you're against mandatory teaching of a foreign language... well, I don't think geo2004 was suggesting it should be mandatory (I certainly don't think it should be mandatory, either).

Quote: Original post by SiCrane
The OP lists some arguments used by Official English advocates.

Yeah, I saw those, but the only one that I can actually see as an actual benefit is "saves money on duplicating services in multiple languages". The "empowers immigrants" ones doesn't make sense. For example, "Studies of Census data show that an immigrant's income rises about 30% as a result of learning English" should actually read "Studies of Census data show that an immigrant's income rises about 30% as a result of learning English as a matter of choice". If you learn just enough to file your tax returns, vote, etc (or get your English-speaking friends to help with that stuff), it's not clear that it would also result in a rise in income. That is, forcing people to conduct a (very small) part of their lives in English is not the same as having the desire to actually go out, learn English, interact with English-speakers on a daily basis and so on. Oh, and "Unity"... whatever that means.

As I said, I don't personally have a problem with it, but I'm just struggling to find any practical benefits.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by Codeka
It is intellectually stimulating

Programming is intellectually stimulating too, but that's not reason enough to force everyone to learn how to program, right? So why is it different with a foreign language?

I know you know the difference between a spoken language and a programming language so I assume you gotta be making this point for the sake of arguing...

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by Codeka
You have more flexibility in thinking, are more senstive to language in general and become a better listener

Somehow I doubt that just learning a foreign language will make you a better listener...

It won't make you a better listener, but if you are a listener, you'll listen more. I can tell you that.

It would make a lot of good for gringoes to learn some spanish to know how to talk the morocha they are inviting drinks to, and better yet, to understand what her bimbo tells her when he pass by... lol

Quote: Original post by owl
I know you know the difference between a spoken language and a programming language so I assume you gotta be making this point for the sake of arguing...

I'm actually making this point to illustrate that not everything that's intellectually stimulated has to be taught.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
I'm in the opposed camp. I think the Official English movement is driven by nativism, xenophobia and general right wing hysteria. I suspect that the people who promote it failed to learn a second language in school and seek to turn a source of shame into a source of pride.

Agreed for the most part. I believe the one reasonable argument for an official language is so that public goods need not be translated into a variety of languages thus saving costs. Other than that it's really just a reactionary ideal base on nativism.

Quote: Original post by Codeka

• It is intellectually stimulating
• You have more flexibility in thinking, are more senstive to language in general and become a better listener
• It improves understanding of your native language

Speaking as someone who was required to learn a second language (I'm Canadian) all through his grade school career, I can say that these points are most definitely true. Especially when I switched from learning French to learning Chinese.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by geo2004
I will always promote the idea of teaching our youth a second language.

May I ask why?

Like Codeka said, I'm not saying it should be required, but I think it should be an available option (although I know for some schools, like where I grew up in a very small town, it wouldn't be available, because of funding/lack of some who was actually fluent). If/when I have kids, if they have an option to learn Spanish in school, I will probably have them learn it.

I don't see any reason not to. A lot of other countries speak multiple languages (officially or not), so I don't see why we should be any different. Now I'm not saying that's an excuse for immigrants to not learn English, but I don't see why we can't broaden the language barrier.

I took 2 years of Spanish in high school (was required to), and hated it. Now I wish I could have done it for more and actually learned it. I think that if the US is going to be the 'Melting Pot', then we should melt our languages a little more as well. I know a lot of bilingual people here (most are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants), so on any given day I can hear Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, and Thai (not sure what the actual language is though). And that's just at work.

Also, I agree with the points that Codeka posted. My career (software programmer) wouldn't benefit any if I knew another language, but some professions would (and not just Spanish). Mostly those careers are sales/customer service professions, but there are others. I also think it does make you a better listener, and that it does give you more appreciation of other cultures.

Are you only opposed to mandatory teaching, or are you against not learning a 2nd language at all? If so may I ask why?

Quote: Original post by Talroth
An "Official Language" as in, "This is the language that all government matters are to be conducted in" is perfectly fine and does not threaten the rights of citizens. Some may be forced to either learn a new language, or invest in interpreters, but their core rights remain intact. However an "Official Language" as in "Everyone must speak this, and only this, or be kicked out" is a horrible thing that I hope no one who expects to have any rights for their self can support.

That's easy for a Canadian to say, but down south here, conducting government in English is as much about excluding people who don't speak English as it is about anything else. If you don't want people to receive government benefits, and you don't want voters to see how mean-spirited you are, wrap yourself in the flag and push English only as the redeeming salvation of the nation. This way non-English speaking welfare recipients can be misinformed about the status of their benefits and more easily cut from the roles. And if you don't like that example, consider the example of locating a polluting factory in a ghetto or other situations where the government informs citizens about matters that might effect them. The people pushing Official English are by and large the same people who think that illegal aliens will be covered by the health care reforms currently under debate in Congress. Yes, those are the folks who shout "You Lie!" at the President during an address to a joint session of Congress. If they had their way, those folks would let injured illegal aliens die rather than receive medical care. Yes, I know that the law requires emergency rooms to treat everyone, but only a fool would think these people respect that law. They want to overturn that too.

Quote: Original post by geo2004
I took 2 years of Spanish in high school (was required to), and hated it. Now I wish I could have done it for more and actually learned it. I think that if the US is going to be the 'Melting Pot', then we should melt our languages a little more as well. I know a lot of bilingual people here (most are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants), so on any given day I can hear Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, and Thai (not sure what the actual language is though). And that's just at work.

I think that's true for a lot of people. As immature teenagers they resist, then as adults they regret. And as college budgets are being cut back, returning to school to study a second language just isn't in the cards for most people.

I think the Official English movement is a distraction, especially as it pertains to schools where it distracts parents from demanding that second language education begin in elementary school.

Quote: Original post by geo2004
Like Codeka said, I'm not saying it should be required, but I think it should be an available option

I see. I assumed you meant mandatory teaching, because I had the impression that it was already available as an option for those who want it.

Quote: Original post by geo2004
A lot of other countries speak multiple languages (officially or not), so I don't see why we should be any different.

There is usually a reason for that. For example, in non-English-speaking countries they learn English since that's really useful. In some places in Italy many people German because they have a lot of German tourists. I think not many people speak multiple languages just for the heck of it.

Quote: Original post by geo2004
I took 2 years of Spanish in high school (was required to), and hated it. Now I wish I could have done it for more and actually learned it.

So what would change significantly if you did? My experience is, I didn't encounter any situation where speaking a (non-English) foreign language would be really useful. So I can overhear people at work, sure, but they aren't talking to me, so why would I. And when they do talk to me, they speak English. I saved a few bucks by ordering a foreign-language book from abroad, that was actually cheaper than buying the US edition. I once was at some tourist place and they ran out of English booklets, but Spanish booklets were available. Is this really a reason spend a few years learning a language?

Quote: Original post by geo2004
My career (software programmer) wouldn't benefit any if I knew another language, but some professions would (and not just Spanish). Mostly those careers are sales/customer service professions, but there are others.

My experience in non-software jobs is limited, but I think Spanish is the only language which is widespread. Sure, an importer from China might deal a lot with chinese-speaking customers, but they would probably hire a chinese salesperson anyway. So it doesn't sound useful to learn Chinese just on the off chance you will ever work for such a company.

Quote: Original post by geo2004
Are you only opposed to mandatory teaching, or are you against not learning a 2nd language at all? If so may I ask why?

I'm opposed to mandatory teaching of anything that's not useful. So I'm in favor of mandatory English lessons in non-english-speaking countried. But I don't see much point in spending a lot of time just so you can say you speak two languages. Unless, of course, you enjoy it. But people who enjoy it can learn it already, I think.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom
For example, in non-English-speaking countries they learn English since that's really useful. In some places in Italy many people German because they have a lot of German tourists.

I doubt they learn German in Italy because of the tourists. I'm sure it has more to do with the fact that they are so close geographically. Same with most European countries who are close or share a border.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom
I'm opposed to mandatory teaching of anything that's not useful. So I'm in favor of mandatory English lessons in non-english-speaking countried.

Why is it useful for other countries to learn English but not vica versa? Just to make our lives more convenient? That seems pretty hypocritcal.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom
So what would change significantly if you did?

Where I live now there have been a lot of times where it would be convenient to know spanish. I have had conversations with people where, although they have a decent grasp of the English language, it would have been much easier for us to speak in Spanish.

I have also shared holidays with a friend who's family was hispanic. Although they all spoke English (except for their mother, who spoke broken English), they usually spoke Spanish in their house. They spoke in English when we were in the same room because we didn't know Spanish, because its polite and made us more comfortable.

So basically I'm saying that in certain regions of the country, it would be convenient for us to know another language. Again, I'm not saying it should be required, but it is a convenience.