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Nuclear Iran?

Started by September 25, 2009 07:26 PM
88 comments, last by LessBread 15 years, 1 month ago
Quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Quote: Original post by SimonForsman
Quote: Original post by trzy
If there is a good case to be made that Iran's retaliation can be contained, then there is no moral reason for opposing a military strike, especially if carried out by a nation in the neighborhood whose very existence is at stake.


Shouldn't the primary concern be wether or not Iran is a real threat, not wether or not they can retaliate ? (Preemptive strikes are just plain evil, You can't murder people just because their nation may or may not do something in the future)

If they want the nukes to keep their neighbours from attacking them its their choice, seeing that the US doesn't follow the non-proliferation treaty and Israel, Pakistan, India and North Korea hasn't even signed it I can't see how anyone has the right to tell Iran what it can or cannot do anymore.


Iran has signed the NPT. It doesn't who and who hasn't signed on to it. Once Iran signed into that NPT then they became answerable to the UN, UNSC, and IAEA.


Nations that signed the NPT are allowed to use nuclear technology just not build nuclear weapons. The problem is with Dual-use technology, technically Iran is following the NPT and the United States is violating it though Iran is intentionally exploiting several loopholes in it such as how a enrichment facility isn't actually considered nuclear infrastructure until you bring nuclear material into it.
Quote: Original post by SimonForsmanIf they want the nukes to keep their neighbours from attacking them its their choice, seeing that the US doesn't follow the non-proliferation treaty and Israel, Pakistan, India and North Korea hasn't even signed it I can't see how anyone has the right to tell Iran what it can or cannot do anymore.


That's an idealistic view. The reality is that a nuclear Iran will destabilize the region. Aside from the risk of nuclear war (which I admit is negligible), it will lead to nuclear proliferation throughout the Middle East, as the Arab states acquire their own nuclear weapons to counter the Iranian threat. A nuclear Iran will also allow the country to bully its neighbors more effectively. Yes, it will deter a nation like Iraq from invading, but it would also prevent foreign powers from intervening if, say, it decided to forcibly expand its Theocracy to its Shiite neighbors.

Is it fair that nations like Pakistan, India, and Israel get nuclear weapons while Iran doesn't? Of course not. But fairness is irrelevant. What's important is maintaining stability and security in the region.

I doubt Iran will ever publicly declare an acquisition of nuclear weapons, or test them. More likely, it will implement a policy of strategic ambiguity, much like Israel. It will never test a weapon, and it will never confirm nor deny their existence. However, it will be an open secret that they do indeed have such weapons. That will allow them to plausibly fight against international sanctions while retaining the weapons' strategic benefit.

I also don't think an attack is the best way to go. It would only increase Iranian support for the regime, and in fact give credit to the very argument that they need nuclear weapons. Iranians have a fear of foreign intervention. They remember how foreign powers supported the Shah against the Iranians' popular will. They remember how foreign powers supported Iraq in an unjustified offensive. The pursuit of nuclear weapons is to ensure that foreign powers will respect the sovereignty of Iran.

It is essential that no nation intervene in the internal affairs of Iran, or even speak of doing so. I cringe each time I hear Israeli officials say that they might bomb Iran, or when Western officials speak of supporting the democratic protests. The outside world needs to respect Iranian sovereignty. If they have a popular revolution, it must be viewed as an Iranian revolution, not the tool of outside forces.

The best method to fight the Iranian acquisition of the bomb is isolation. This would respect Iranian sovereignty, while still persuading them that the bomb isn't worth it. Iran is not North Korea. Self-reliance is not one of its central tenets. Indeed, it wishes to be viewed as a modern, influential, and involved nation - something unachievable if they are shunned from the international community.

The difficulty, of course, is convincing Russia and China to impose sanctions. Russia should be relatively easy, since a nuclear Iran is a direct threat to Russian interests in Central Asia. I think that as Iran gets closer to the bomb, and as relations between Russia and the West (hopefully) improve, Russia will be more supportive of sanctions on Iran. China will be far more difficult. As a growing nation with limited foreign influence, China is dependent on Iranian resources. Even worse, China has America by the balls. The big challenge will be persuading China that severe sanctions, or at least the threat of such sanctions, would be worthwhile.

Assuming the UNSC can impose sanctions that are widely supported by most of the nations of the world, I think Iran would cave in fairly quickly, especially if this was coupled with sufficient incentives. Without a market for their oil, their regime would face economic collapse unless they gave up the pursuit of the bomb.
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Quote: Original post by Straudos
Russia should be relatively easy, since a nuclear Iran is a direct threat to Russian interests in Central Asia.

Realy? Usualy western politics blame Russia that it supports "peaceful" atom in Iran and thus- indirectly- Iranian "military" nuclear program.
Quote: Original post by Krokhin
Quote: Original post by Straudos
Russia should be relatively easy, since a nuclear Iran is a direct threat to Russian interests in Central Asia.

Realy? Usualy western politics blame Russia that it supports "peaceful" atom in Iran and thus- indirectly- Iranian "military" nuclear program.

I think/hope the Russian leadership is smart enough to figure out that a peacefully nuclear Iran can easily evolve into a militarily nuclear Iran. I think they've been dragging their feet on Iran in order to establish positive relations with the country. However, I think as the Iranian program matures, they will start persuading the Iranians to bring it to a halt.

I'm curious, what's the general view in Russia on Iran's government and Iran's nuclear program?
Quote: Original post by SimonForsman

If they want the nukes to keep their neighbours from attacking them its their choice, seeing that the US doesn't follow the non-proliferation treaty and Israel, Pakistan, India and North Korea hasn't even signed it I can't see how anyone has the right to tell Iran what it can or cannot do anymore.


No. Signatories to the NPT or not, nations are not free to acquire nuclear weapons without scrutiny or interference. The threats posed by nuclear weapons outweigh the desire to adhere to an idealized conception of fairness in international relations. Sorry, but that's life.
----Bart
Quote: Original post by hadikazemi
i am iranian! you must to know iranian nation hate iran goverment politics.

see protests in iran and violence treatment of goverment with them :

http://search.cnn.com/search?query=iran%20protest%20shoot&type=news&sortBy=date&intl=false

more than 100 of protests killed !


We haven't forgotten. Neda lives! [smile]
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
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Quote: Original post by trzy
Quote: Original post by LessBread
Blame the victim coupled with American exceptionalism. If Iran gets bombed, it can only blame itself. That sounds a lot like "If Iraq gets bombed, it can only blame itself" or "If a woman gets raped she can only blame herself". Who would never say "If the US gets bombed, it can only blame itself"? Who would always say "If the US gets bombed, it can only blame the bad guy at the top of it's enemies list"? Terrorism is another issue. This time it's a Hezbollah connection rather than an Al-Qaeda connection. Is Hezbollah a target too? Iran "deliberately pandering to extremists and trying to distract their people from problems at home" - it sounds like they have a lot in common with the Republican noise machine.


It's hard to think of a situation when a woman would deserve to get raped. I actually can't come up with any right now. On the other hand, it is certainly possible to think up scenarios when striking first to defend one's self would be morally justifiable. Like everything, the decision to strike first has to be justified by a credible threat. We don't have to wait for a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv. Or an emboldened Hezbollah. Or whatever else the Iranian regime will feel entitled to with the protection of its shiny new weapon. Nor do we have to wait to allow every other government in the region to develop their own bomb.


Yet you have no problem blaming Iran for getting bombed before it's bombed. Preventative war is never morally justifiable. Invoking the dreaded mushroom cloud doesn't change that in 2009 any more than such talk changed it in 2002. But if you want to believe that, you must admit that Iran has more to fear from Israel than the other way around. Israel has nuclear weapons. Iran shouldn't have to wait for a mushroom cloud over Tehran before it takes Israel seriously as a credible threat. The protection of hundreds of bombs appear to have prompted the Israeli regime to feel entitled to invade, occupy and bomb neighboring countries (Lebanon, Syria) as well as ignoring it's legal responsibilities towards people living in lands it occupies and slowly annexes.

Your argument rests on a double standard.

Quote: Original post by trzy
Quote: So we should have bombed North Korea years ago?


North Korea is a problem that is much more limited in scope. It is bordered by South Korea and China, only one of which it has designs on. US troops are already stationed there for the purpose of defending the South and engaging the North if necessary. Both North and South believe they will eventually reunify. North Korea is ruled by a batty family dictatorship that is interested primarily in its own survival, not by religious lunatics concerned with religious purity and a secretive cabal of military leaders who actively promote terrorism abroad.

There's no question North Korea should have been bombed if it were at all possible to set back its nuclear ambitions, and those of other nations like Iran, without incurring disastrous losses. Perhaps the diplomatic efforts could have been handled better, but I think North Korea has generally been handled well. Pick battles you can win. If there is a good case to be made that Iran's retaliation can be contained, then there is no moral reason for opposing a military strike, especially if carried out by a nation in the neighborhood whose very existence is at stake.


So it's not OK to bomb insane dictators to prevent them from getting the bomb, but it is OK to bomb religious lunatics to prevent them from getting the bomb?

The moral calculus concerning an attack on Iran hinges on whether we can contain Iranian retaliation? That's not moral. That's perverse.

Israel's very existence is not at stake. Ehud Barak said as much last week. I linked to it in my first post.

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." - the Laughing Man
Quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Quote: Original post by SimonForsman
Quote: Original post by trzy
If there is a good case to be made that Iran's retaliation can be contained, then there is no moral reason for opposing a military strike, especially if carried out by a nation in the neighborhood whose very existence is at stake.


Shouldn't the primary concern be wether or not Iran is a real threat, not wether or not they can retaliate ? (Preemptive strikes are just plain evil, You can't murder people just because their nation may or may not do something in the future)

If they want the nukes to keep their neighbours from attacking them its their choice, seeing that the US doesn't follow the non-proliferation treaty and Israel, Pakistan, India and North Korea hasn't even signed it I can't see how anyone has the right to tell Iran what it can or cannot do anymore.


Iran has signed the NPT. It doesn't who and who hasn't signed on to it. Once Iran signed into that NPT then they became answerable to the UN, UNSC, and IAEA.


The thing is though that the US, Russia and China aren't really holding up to their part of the treaty, so why should Iran ?

Do we really have the right to demand more of Iran than we do of the United States ?
Quote:
Article VI 0a
Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.

The US have been working on low-yield nukes under the bush administration which is in direct violation of their obligations to the NPT, Iran is not the biggest villian here, clean your own shit before pointing fingers elsewhere.

As long as the permanent SC members keep pissing on the NPT we shouldn't expect countries like Iran who have tense relations with their nuke wielding neighbours to treat the NPT with any more respect.
[size="1"]I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.
The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
Quote: Original post by SimonForsman
Quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Quote: Original post by SimonForsman
Quote: Original post by trzy
If there is a good case to be made that Iran's retaliation can be contained, then there is no moral reason for opposing a military strike, especially if carried out by a nation in the neighborhood whose very existence is at stake.


Shouldn't the primary concern be wether or not Iran is a real threat, not wether or not they can retaliate ? (Preemptive strikes are just plain evil, You can't murder people just because their nation may or may not do something in the future)

If they want the nukes to keep their neighbours from attacking them its their choice, seeing that the US doesn't follow the non-proliferation treaty and Israel, Pakistan, India and North Korea hasn't even signed it I can't see how anyone has the right to tell Iran what it can or cannot do anymore.


Iran has signed the NPT. It doesn't who and who hasn't signed on to it. Once Iran signed into that NPT then they became answerable to the UN, UNSC, and IAEA.


The thing is though that the US, Russia and China aren't really holding up to their part of the treaty, so why should Iran ?

Do we really have the right to demand more of Iran than we do of the United States ?
Quote:
Article VI 0a
Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.

The US have been working on low-yield nukes under the bush administration which is in direct violation of their obligations to the NPT, Iran is not the biggest villian here, clean your own shit before pointing fingers elsewhere.

As long as the permanent SC members keep pissing on the NPT we shouldn't expect countries like Iran who have tense relations with their nuke wielding neighbours to treat the NPT with any more respect.



I'm fairly certain Iran's decision to develop nuclear weapons has nothing to do with whether or not the US is is developing low yield weapons. They think thier security will be improved if they posses nuclear arms, thus they develop them. Low yield nukes made in the US have no impact on this.

I agree with lessbread that the military option is extremely unattractive here, but that doesnt mean that Iran isnt the real villian(or rather the Iranian Government), as its doing something that threatens to be massivly destabilizing for the region, with bad effects for large sections of the world. The US nuclear arsenal has been around awhile, and minor changes dont effect anyones security either way, whereas if Iran becomes a nuclear power, there could be negative effects that could be felt over the entire world, including Sweden.

Even if you were to consider that the United States was in gross violation of its treaty responsiblities however, that does not give the Iranians the right to diregard thier obligations, with negative results for the middle east and the world, or imply that it makes their actions somehow more virtuous, or imply that the US and its allies were being unreasonable in attempting to bring these actions to a halt.

The Iranians should meet thier treaty obligations, because it makes the world, the area, and the Iranians themselves more secure, let alone out of respect for the principle that one should do what one agrees to do. The alleged actions of China, Russia and the US are not relevant to this.
Somewhat breaking news today, Iran wants a 3rd party to enrich their uranium to 20% instead of enriching it to that level themselves. According to the article 90% is required for a bomb

Is this of any significance? If so, what exactly?

link

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