Hey all, weird question for you. I know this is a game development forum and all, but GDNet people seem to know everything that there is to know. So anyways. Here's some background. I got an English degree back in 2003. I applied to law school back then, and got in, but then for various reasons did not go. I then went back to school in 2005 to get my Comp Sci bachelors as well. Now i'm looking at possibly going to law school again. I read a lot of bad stuff online about how hard it is to make it as a lawyer, but then anecdotally I hear of a lot of people who love the profession and are successful. I belong to a law school forum, and it seems like people there are kind of down on the prospects of lawyering, which I find to be odd. They say it's hard to get a job that pays good money, and if you do you have to work insane hours. Is this really true? I find it hard to believe that lawyers do worse than for instance computer scientists. Anyone have any anecdotal experience with lawyers? How do they do financially? Do they enjoy it? Thanks for any information! Sometimes I get the impression on the law school forum I go to that people are down on the idea just to suppress competition.

Wouldn't you get a better response to this in a forum that is related to the legal profession (like the one you already belong too) rather than one related to game development?

Quote: Original post by Obscure
Wouldn't you get a better response to this in a forum that is related to the legal profession (like the one you already belong too) rather than one related to game development?

Like I mentioned in my post, it seems like people on the forums dedicated to the profession (or students of the profession) tend to dump on it, but I get the impression that a lot of it might be that they are trying to dissuade more people from going to law school.

I'm not a lawyer, but I know a guy who is, and he told me that unless you're a partner, you get paid a pittance and have to work insane hours (he once told me he saw the sun rise through the office window three times before he went home). Then, once you become a partner, you work even insaner hours, but get paid hundreds of dollars for each one.

One time, he said, he worked out that in a particularly long week, he was earning something like $1.57 per hour (associates are usually paid a salary and you don't get overtime).

Anyway, that's my anecdotal experience. Like all anecdotal experiences, you should take it with a grain of salt, but I have a feeling working in a law firm isn't exactly like what you see on Boston Legal :p

Quote: Original post by ktuluorion
So anyways. Here's some background. I got an English degree back in 2003. I applied to law school back then, and got in, but then for various reasons did not go. I then went back to school in 2005 to get my Comp Sci bachelors as well. Now i'm looking at possibly going to law school again.

Wow.

You two bachelors degrees in unrelated fields, and you are around 29 years old.

You are thinking of going back AGAIN for another degree in an unrelated field.

What it is that you actually want to do with your life? Half of your lifespan has been spent in preparation for a career. Don't you think you actually started it?

Quote: I read a lot of bad stuff online about how hard it is to make it as a lawyer, but then anecdotally I hear of a lot of people who love the profession and are successful.

So you worry that with THREE college degrees you might not be able to make enough money to support yourself and a family.

Go look at government reports and see the average salaries in your geographic area. Computer programmers, even game programmers, tend to make around double the average wage. Attorneys make a little more than that. Technical writers and editors can earn a little less than double, but still much more than average.

Consider the guy down the street who works at a convenience store, who works 60 hours per week so that he can get enough overtime hours to pay the bills. He makes the "average" wage.

Consider the lady around the corner who spends all day on her feet at the local diner, with painful feet, knees, and back, sucking up to customers to pay the bills. She makes the "average" wage.

Consider the cop who pulled you over for speeding. They put their life on the line for their job almost every day. Usually the danger is directing traffic or helping people on high-speed roads, but they are still in harm's way. They work graveyard shifts and must work with really bad members of society. Many officers take second jobs doing security work where they are more valuable because they are full police officers. Police officers make slightly more than the local "average" wage.

You already have two degrees, each one enables you to have better jobs with significantl higher pay any of those people.

Quote: They say it's hard to get a job that pays good money, and if you do you have to work insane hours.

Welcome to the Real World.

You can either have a nice job that pays well and requires you to work a lot...

Or you can have a job that does not pay well and also requires you to work a lot.

Either way, you are going to need to work.

Quote: Original post by frob

Quote: Original post by ktuluorion
So anyways. Here's some background. I got an English degree back in 2003. I applied to law school back then, and got in, but then for various reasons did not go. I then went back to school in 2005 to get my Comp Sci bachelors as well. Now i'm looking at possibly going to law school again.

Wow.

You two bachelors degrees in unrelated fields, and you are around 29 years old.

Well, i'm actually 27. And that is actually the average age for people entering law school, so I wouldn't say it is that weird.

I wouldn't say that my two degrees are unrelated.. the fact that I have the English degree in addition to my CS degree has actually really helped me land top jobs. The combination of technical skills and communication skills allowed me to do design and business/systems analysis work right from the get-go, which was what I really enjoy doing.

Quote:
You are thinking of going back AGAIN for another degree in an unrelated field.

I actually believe that any education makes you stronger regardless of whether it is "related" or not. My experience has been that the more unique you are can help carve you a niche that other people may not have had the resume for.

Quote:
What it is that you actually want to do with your life? Half of your lifespan has been spent in preparation for a career. Don't you think you actually started it?

I've done the following jobs: Been the main technician/developer for 2 small businesses, i've taught elementary school, worked on wall street in technology... i've done quite a bit. I've had up to 3 jobs at any point in my life in the past 3 years. Usually I had 2. I've actually made quite a bit of money in my time I guess, but I would really like to become even more successful. It's not really not knowing what I want to do, it's more that I have a type A personality and what to become a gazillionaire. School helps because it gives you more knowledge, another credential, and more contacts.

Quote:

Quote: I read a lot of bad stuff online about how hard it is to make it as a lawyer, but then anecdotally I hear of a lot of people who love the profession and are successful.

So you worry that with THREE college degrees you might not be able to make enough money to support yourself and a family.

Go look at government reports and see the average salaries in your geographic area. Computer programmers, even game programmers, tend to make around double the average wage. Attorneys make a little more than that. Technical writers and editors can earn a little less than double, but still much more than average.

Consider the guy down the street who works at a convenience store, who works 60 hours per week so that he can get enough overtime hours to pay the bills. He makes the "average" wage.

Consider the lady around the corner who spends all day on her feet at the local diner, with painful feet, knees, and back, sucking up to customers to pay the bills. She makes the "average" wage.

Consider the cop who pulled you over for speeding. They put their life on the line for their job almost every day. Usually the danger is directing traffic or helping people on high-speed roads, but they are still in harm's way. They work graveyard shifts and must work with really bad members of society. Many officers take second jobs doing security work where they are more valuable because they are full police officers. Police officers make slightly more than the local "average" wage.

You already have two degrees, each one enables you to have better jobs with significantl higher pay any of those people.

Quote: They say it's hard to get a job that pays good money, and if you do you have to work insane hours.

Welcome to the Real World.

You can either have a nice job that pays well and requires you to work a lot...

Or you can have a job that does not pay well and also requires you to work a lot.

Either way, you are going to need to work.

I'm not worried about "making a living." Making double the average isn't really my goal.. I want to make 5x the average, or more. My goal is to be vastly successful. Yeah, it sounds overboard. But I believe in myself, and I think that if anyone can do it, I can. I'd be happy doing very well (as I have been doing), but to be truly fulfilled I would like to do better.

Besides, I do have two young cats that I need to put through college.

Quote: Original post by ktuluorion
I'm not worried about "making a living." Making double the average isn't really my goal.. I want to make 5x the average, or more. My goal is to be vastly successful. Yeah, it sounds overboard. But I believe in myself, and I think that if anyone can do it, I can. I'd be happy doing very well (as I have been doing), but to be truly fulfilled I would like to do better.

The way to earn a lot of money is not to work for someone else. Not as a lawyer, not as a software engineer, not as a manager, not as anything. If you want to earn "5x the average, or more", your only option is to work for yourself. You will never earn "a lot" (by your definition) of money working for someone else.

The difficulty working for yourself is that it is really hard, and you might not ever actually succeed. You seem prepared to put in the work, and that's a good first step. But don't think you'll ever make the kind of money you're thinking of by working for someone else.

But before we get carried away, allow me to let you in on a little secret. Money will not make you happy. You might be earning $250k per year, but it'll never be enough - someone will always be earning more; there'll always be another boat; a faster car; a bigger house. The secret to a happy (work) life is to find something you love doing. Find that, and you'll never have to work another day in your life.

For the record: I'm a game developer who went to law school. I was mainly interested in European and international law, and never had the intention to become a lawyer.

I'm confused what you want from us. If you're interested in law and you can afford to pay for your education, just go for it. I would say that having a degree in both law and computer science is certainly an interesting combination, but finding a job that requires knowledge in both fields will be hard to find. In my experience you'll end up working in one field, and although knowing a thing or two about the other is nice, in most cases little more than that. If you want to increase you salary by education, you'd probably better of getting a PhD in CS (but I'm not that familiar with the US job market).

If you just want to get rich, I agree with Codeka: your best bet is to become an entrepreneur and work your ass off.

Quote: Original post by WanMaster
If you just want to get rich, I agree with Codeka: your best bet is to become an entrepreneur and work your ass off.

Unfortunately that wasn't what he wanted.

Remember this?

Quote: They say it's hard to get a job that pays good money, and if you do you have to work insane hours.

TANSTAAFL

Quote: Original post by frob

Quote: Original post by WanMaster
If you just want to get rich, I agree with Codeka: your best bet is to become an entrepreneur and work your ass off.

Unfortunately that wasn't what he wanted.

Remember this?

Quote: They say it's hard to get a job that pays good money, and if you do you have to work insane hours.

TANSTAAFL

Yes, i'm looking for efficiency. I don't want to work more than 60 hours per week regularly.

Ultimately the goal is to become an entrepreneur, but I want to build up a lot of capital first so that I can create a venture "the right way" instead of running out of cash or having problems doing things the way that I want to.

The goal I guess is to safely build up as much cash with (ideally) the least amount of work. This doesn't equate to not wanting to work hard, but it does mean that I want to work smart. I mean, even if I am making 120k/yr as a lawyer pulling 80 hour weeks, my hourly wage isn't that hot. I would think that there are more effective ways of making money than that.