Quote:

Original post by sunandshadow Quote: Original post by kseh Would a formal design framework get in the way of or decrease the chances of emmergent properties within the game or vice-versa? I thought emergent properties within the game were only supposed to be emergent to the player, not the developer. If random crap is popping up in your game, chances are good that random crap will be game-breaking or at least unbalancing.

Emergent, to me, means you implement a feature with a specific goal, but someone (even you as the developer) discovers an accidental (but usually positive) side-effect in the gameplay.

Quote:

Original post by kseh Would a formal design framework get in the way of or decrease the chances of emmergent properties within the game or vice-versa?

Neither. It's like asking "would an architect's plan of the house increase the number of residents?" There's nothing inherent to a formal framework that increases emergent properties. It would depend on the framework. In particular, I am not aware of any framework that actually creates or guides you to creation of such properties. MDA merely documents such properties, for example. You can come up with mechanics but you have to flesh out the dynamics yourself.

Thank u all for ur answers.

I guess I am looking for some kind of a methodology for game design, something that would make me think of all the game's aspects and how to make it fun (I think that at the end of it, that is what we want a game to do) prior to the development process.

terminallytrivial -Would it be accurate to say that the MDA can be used more to define the game's concept - the game's experience and which features to include and how- and the GDD for a more detailed documentation?


Do u know if there are any books on the subject besides the site u linked to?
Just started reading chris crawford's book "on game design" and also "creating emotion in games" by david freeman...
Are these a good point to start? do u have any others u recommend for a beginner?

Thanks again :-)

Quote:

Original post by Digital ChaosWould it be accurate to say that the MDA can be used more to define the game's concept - the game's experience and which features to include and how- and the GDD for a more detailed documentation?

You're throwing me off by constantly worrying about the GDD. :)

Yes, the features (mechanics) and the experience of playing the game (dynamics and aesthetics) are all in the MDA. The MDA framework has nothing to say about the way you choose to document the design.

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback!

Quote:

Original post by terminallytrivial You're throwing me off by constantly worrying about the GDD. :)

:-) Sry about that.. I'm still trying to understand which tool to use and to which purpose..
and also to figure out how to combine all the tools to form some kind of a process, with defined steps...


Regarding the MDA- where do we start from-aesthetics/mechanics?
As I understand (maybe wrongly..) we need to start from the game's aesthetics and that would lead to which mechanics to use...and then we'll be able to see whether those mechanics create the desired aesthetics&dynamics..


Is there an on-line group/site which practices MDA in a lessons-exercises form, where you'll be able to get feedback on your work?

cheers

[Edited by - Digital Chaos on September 1, 2009 7:59:52 AM]

Hi,

Is there any on-line group/site which practices MDA(Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics) in a lessons-exercises form, where one can get a feedback?

10x

No.

I've said it twice above - this is not a commonly-followed approach, nor is there any similar approach which is commonly-followed. MDA is a concept that has been presented at a conference or two, perhaps executed within a conference workshop, and maybe used individually by a handful of people.

To the best of my knowledge there are no common tools for this, nor common processes. The industry is still working on these, which is difficult when most software projects fail in some way or other. Game design is currently done in a fairly ad-hoc way.

To reiterate what everyone is saying, you're not going to find much in "lessons-exercises" form for game design. This is especially true for a niche topic like the MDA framework. The field is just too young and doesn't have universally established practices and approaches.

Let me ask you... have you built or designed a game yet? If not, I would completely ignore the MDA framework and just try to make extremely simple, fully functional games. And when I mean simple, I mean very simple... something on the level of a game like Pac-Man or Asteroids. Once you have experience building games that work, then you can start worrying about making games people will actually want to play.

If you have made a few games and you really want to learn about how to use the MDA framework, take an existing game and try to break it down into the its mechanics, dynamics, and aesthetics (make a list). Alternatively, you can do what I said earlier:

Quote:

Original post by terminallytrivial Try to revise a simple game like a traditional card game, a simple casual game, or a old-school arcade game. Or take some cards or playing pieces from board games you have and make up your own simple game.

I was really inspired by the MDA framework and even wrote an article here for GameDev after attending one of the GDC design workshops a few years ago, but I find one frustration is that I can't test it out with anyone. I can make up cards and boards to represent possibility spaces and try to tweak mechanics, but I'm not currently in a situation that allows me to get together with friends and try stuff out.

I do think it has great potential. If you're like me and tend to think in abstract terms, it is nice to make at least some aspects of your design more concrete. But I found one of the real strengths of MDA was when you could run others through your parts of your design as a sanity check.

I use it in a very rough sense. It's a good mental tool for organizing different areas of a design, and thinking about implications of various design decisions. But the creative process is just that - a creative process. If there was a rigid framework designers would follow, it would cease to be one.