Quote: Original post by Cambios
Do we really want this industry to evolve to a point where scouring external, third party web sites is a de facto requirement for enjoying any level of success in a game?

The first thing I thought of when I read this is when I was younger I had Mortal Kombat for Sega. I also was lucky enough to talk my mom into buying me the book with all of the moves and finishes in it. How is this any different? Countless times friends and I have scoured books and internet for tips and tricks to beat bosses/do cool moves/get out of situations on all sorts of games, not just MMORPG's.

Quote: Original post by terlenth
Reading up on any hobby is the norm. Especially if you want to be really good at it. And that in my perspective is what gaming is, a hobby.

I agree. The high end raiding in WoW gives great rewards, which are supposed to be hard to get. I personally would love to get these items, but accept that fact that I probably won't any time soon. I don't have the time to do 25 man raids and get this gear, and I accept that as part of the game. If someone wants this gear, and has the time to raid, then they also have time to research the encounters. There are sites all over the web dedicated to WoW strategy. I don't think this is any different at all to look up how to do Liu Kang's finishing move where he turns into a dragon and bites off the top half off his opponent, AND memorize how to do it, AND do it correctly.
I don't believe researching game play is only for hard-core players, regardless of the game/genre.

Quote: Original post by Cambios


Do we really want this industry to evolve to a point where scouring external, third party web sites is a de facto requirement for enjoying any level of success in a game?

I think not.

but it isn't, mostly. You can do an encounter by trial-and-error, but when 24 people in your party know the encounter, it's often easier just to tell #25 to go watch a video on tankspot to get an idea of what's involved.

To put it another way. If you were playing cricket, you'd explain the rules of it to someone new before you started. You wouldn't just go in and say "right, you'll pick it up as we go".

I haven't encountered much elitism in wow. I'm reasonably geared and raid maybe twice a week on weekends. I "gear check" anyone I raid with, but I don't expect more than a reasonable setup. If you're too lazy to gem/enchant your gear, I probably won't want you coming with me unless we're desperate, but I wouldn't say "lolz n00u0b learnz 2 enchant!!11".

Quote: Original post by Terlenth
I think the crux of the position on hardcore players versus casual (and the perspective of there being snot nosed elite players) is that there is content that "casual" players want to be able to access. However they don't want to put the time in. And, really the time doesn't need to be all at once like it used to have to be.

No, that's not the crux.

First of all, these are games we are talking about. "Putting the time in" is a work concept.

Second of all, why should these "casuals" have to run the same set of dungeons 20 times each just to have the gear to be able to enjoy the other new content. For a lot of people, 1 or 2 times through the same dungeon is enough and then they want something new. Hard core players (like myself, honestly) don't mind 10+ runs of the same dungeon to get the Cloak of Super Critical Hits.

Quote: Original post by Binomine

Quote: Players who want meaningful character advancement but are uninterested in pressing the “1″ button for 20 hours a week in repetitive raid dungeons are callously told to “l2play.”

But, But, But..This is the game.

I don't understand why people do this. If your video game requires playing video games is a free time activity. If it doesn't live up to whatever the player wants, then don't complain to the other players, complain to the admins and leave for a game that does live up to what you want.

Well the problem is, from level 1 to 80 that is NOT what the game is. Then end game comes, and its a total bait and switch.

Worst of all, because WoW has so many players, all the new MMOs keep trying to copy it. So those of us who are fed up and want something different aren't even being offered something different.

Quote: Original post by Cambios

Quote: Original post by Terlenth
I think the crux of the position on hardcore players versus casual (and the perspective of there being snot nosed elite players) is that there is content that "casual" players want to be able to access. However they don't want to put the time in. And, really the time doesn't need to be all at once like it used to have to be.

No, that's not the crux.

First of all, these are games we are talking about. "Putting the time in" is a work concept.

Second of all, why should these "casuals" have to run the same set of dungeons 20 times each just to have the gear to be able to enjoy the other new content. For a lot of people, 1 or 2 times through the same dungeon is enough and then they want something new. Hard core players (like myself, honestly) don't mind 10+ runs of the same dungeon to get the Cloak of Super Critical Hits.

As I said before, it's the HOBBY concept. I have yet to meet ANYONE who does not "put the time in" for their hobby. And, if you don't think that. Then name a hobby you don't put the time in for?

I'll list my hobbies:
-Running (4-5 hours a week)
-Ultimate (6-8 hours a week)
-Working out (6-8 hours a week)
-Gaming (this one is the variant)

And, for the same activities I'll do the same thing over and over again.

Everything in life requires you put some time into it to do it. That's how it is.

I think the more serious players help the less serious players. If a multiplayer game was all casual, the casual players would have no goal to seek. Seeing a random player with awesome armor and cool weapons gives the player some motivation to continue playing.