Again, I am mainly concerned about the idiots, and I think EA is encouraging them. I realize that the vast majority of people are perfectly reasonable.

I realize that rape games are more popular in japan, I think that is a bad thing. I won't comment further there as I do not know their culture very well.

Maybe I worded that wrong. I do not want to take games away from anyone. Not even rape ones, as sick as they might make me feel. I merely want to try and change hearts and minds to make gaming culture more comfortable for me and other women. Gay-bashing is becoming less acceptable (rightly so), open racism is becoming less acceptable, open sexism is becoming less acceptable. I don't want to outlaw anything, I just want to raise awareness of the issues so that people will think about who they might be offending when they make games/advertisements.

Edit:
As for changing the world through economic means. I'll do that when I'm rich. :D
(which should come when I create my awesome game laser tank! Honest guys! It's not in perpetual programming limbo!) (ok, so it is)

Quote: Original post by Osha

Quote: Original post by LessBread
I don't see the outrage. Bad taste marketing is nothing new. Niche marketing is nothing new. If Carl's Jr can serve up an completely unbelievable advert of a hot bikini model eating a teriaki burger on the beach, why get outraged over cleavage in an advert? I can't help but see the outrage as an extension of religious beliefs. (How dare they encourage straight men to sin!!!). Now that Comic-Con is over, was any inappropriate behavior towards booth babes reported? If not, then this fuss is much ado about nothing.

You might think this is silly of me but I do get offended by lots of burger commercials. Not so much by a bit of cleavage, but by underlying sexist messages.

Being atheist, religious beliefs had nothing to do with it for me.
My main motivation is trying to make gamer culture a more welcoming place for women. One controversial post at a time.

Even if no booth babes were harrased because of this contest, it does happen.

I think your concerns are commendable, but I see this specific issue as complaining about effects rather than identifying the underlying cause.

And the arstechnica link didn't offer any more insight into the matter than what we've offered here. Was there a comment there describing actual harassment? If so I didn't see it. One poster there did dismiss this specific complaint about "sin to win" as "fake fundie" outrage, so I'm not alone in noting the religious overtone of the complaint.

Quote: Original post by Osha
...I just want to raise awareness of the issues so that people will think about who they might be offending when they make games/advertisements.

You don't have a right not to be offended.

I don't think it's a good thing that you're offended, but I think you spend too much time and energy on the things that offend you. Spend your effort promoting and supporting the things that you enjoy, that don't offend or demean you. Misogynists have a right to create video games, too. Virtually any game that involves a realistic simulation of human engagements, even applied to a fantasy framework, will encounter some of the rougher aspects of human experience - racism, sexism, ageism, etc. They may be less openly acceptable now, but that just means they get sublimated: for example, the code word "barbaric" is pretty much reserved in Western discourse for criticism of Arab activities.

I can't see a middle ground that addresses your concerns without neutering valid aspects of the male experience and expression.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
And the arstechnica link didn't offer any more insight into the matter than what we've offered here. Was there a comment there describing actual harassment? If so I didn't see it.

There was a comment part way down the page. Ars' permalinks are broken: they just take you to the page rather than the post. Here's a link to the post via the forum interface.

Naturally, it is riddled with specious analogy while making a semi-valid point.

Quote: Original post by LessBread

Quote: Original post by Osha

Quote: Original post by LessBread
I don't see the outrage. Bad taste marketing is nothing new. Niche marketing is nothing new. If Carl's Jr can serve up an completely unbelievable advert of a hot bikini model eating a teriaki burger on the beach, why get outraged over cleavage in an advert? I can't help but see the outrage as an extension of religious beliefs. (How dare they encourage straight men to sin!!!). Now that Comic-Con is over, was any inappropriate behavior towards booth babes reported? If not, then this fuss is much ado about nothing.

You might think this is silly of me but I do get offended by lots of burger commercials. Not so much by a bit of cleavage, but by underlying sexist messages.

Being atheist, religious beliefs had nothing to do with it for me.
My main motivation is trying to make gamer culture a more welcoming place for women. One controversial post at a time.

Even if no booth babes were harrased because of this contest, it does happen.

I think your concerns are commendable, but I see this specific issue as complaining about effects rather than identifying the underlying cause.

And the arstechnica link didn't offer any more insight into the matter than what we've offered here. Was there a comment there describing actual harassment? If so I didn't see it. One poster there did dismiss this specific complaint about "sin to win" as "fake fundie" outrage, so I'm not alone in noting the religious overtone of the complaint.

Oh sorry, the comment link didn't work. Search for the comment by "Iola"

I realize I'm coming across as complaining, and I'm not trying to. Sorry for that.
As for addressing the underlying cause: It's so hard to get a good grip on the underlying cause <.<
I could sit here and talk about pervasive sexism all day but that would get us *nowhere*.
I do think one of the causes is that the field is so male dominiated, and this is somewhat of a self-perpetuating cycle.

Quote: Original post by Osha
I am not sorry for what I have said, for I believe every word of it. I am immensely sorry I phrased it in such a way as to make a productive discussion impossible.

Is that what you think happened?

Point one (in no particular order) original phrasing:

Quote: And finally how they encourage this for any booth babes at the convention, not just EA employees.

Point one new phrasing:

Quote: My main concern is that people will misinterpret the contest (you'd be amazed at how people can misinterpret things), my secondary concern is that booth babes who don't work for IE, and other women in costumes will have to fend off people wanting to take pictures thus detracting from their convention going experience,

There is no difference in tone.

Point two original phrasing:

Quote: Then there's the fact that they call the picture taking an "act of lust" and tell people to "sin to win"; you just *know* they want people to push the limits (even if they do have disclaimers in the small text), and it should be obvious that this is encouraging inappropriate behavior (sexual harrasement) towards booth babes.

Point two new phrasing:

Quote: I did not mean to imply that taking photos with booth babes was inherently sexual harrasement.

There is no difference in tone. I see a substantive clarification, but no difference in tone.

Point three original phrasing:

Quote: First of all there's their assumption that anyone entering the contest would be a straight male.

Point three new phrasing:

Quote: and how sometimes companies don't see a need to market to both genders.

There is no difference in tone. There is a slight clarification in substance, but no difference in tone.

Point four original phrasing:

Quote: Then there's the overt sexualization and objectification of women

Point four new phrasing:

Quote: Lastly I see this contest as an example of how women are represented in gamer culture,

There is no difference in tone.

Who could compare your original phrasing to your new phrasing and say that there is a substantial change in your civility from one to the other with a straight face? You weren't overly uncivil or confrontational or angry to begin with, and the missing clarifications in your first post hardly "made productive discussion impossible", especially compared to the usual nonsense that gets a free pass around here. You were simply targeted for bullying. A word of advice for the Lounge and the internet in general: Don't be so quick to let others rob you of your self-worth. Don't be so quick to pay fealty to be let into the club for a day.

[Edited by - BerwynIrish on July 28, 2009 10:55:52 PM]

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by Osha
...I just want to raise awareness of the issues so that people will think about who they might be offending when they make games/advertisements.

You don't have a right not to be offended.

Yes, but it's also valid to point out that something is offending, and for us to debate why it is so and whether it needs to be. Osha's not the first person I've seen link to this contest; I was made aware of it from a link from an indie game developer's blog (coincidently also a woman) who basically called EA "sleasebags". I think it's a valid question as to harm this kind of marketing can do, to a specific game, a company or to gaming in general.

I'm guessing this is a very specificly targeted campaign to a mostly male audience at Comic Con. And I'm also guessing that Dante's Inferno is a very male demographic oriented game; I don't know much about it, but my quick internet search suggests it's in the same vein as God of War. However the publisher is EA, and this kind of campaign doesn't really mesh well with their general demographics.

Of course, I'm not sure how common this sort of thing is at Comic Con. I've only been to rather general expos and a fair few academic conferences. The cute girls at the booths there tend to be postdocs. [wink]

Any links to sinful images yet?

Quote: Original post by Silvermyst
Any links to sinful images yet?

Any screenshot from my own game-in-progress is a good representation of Sloth.

I'd post a link but I'm too lazy.

Quote: Original post by OshaFirst of all there's their assumption that anyone entering the contest would be a straight male.

An overwhelming majority probably is. So from a marketing perspective it makes sense. You can also make a case for starting a campaign to attract more women or non-geeks, but ultimately it's just a business decision.

Quote: Then there's the overt sexualization and objectification of women.

I agree it isn't the most tasteful campaign I've ever seen. But booth babes have always been at these conventions and many other places too. If you're offended, I think you could blame society in general rather than this specific incident.

Quote: Then there's the fact that they call the picture taking an "act of lust"

I think for many people this was already an act of lust, although most of them wouldn't openly admit it. Let's be honest; these girls are hired to create a sexy atmosphere, in the hope that this will attract potential customers. EA just made it more explicit, which I must admit, I wouldn't expect from such a mainstream let's-not-offend-anybody company.

Quote: you just *know* they want people to push the limits (even if they do have disclaimers in the small text), and it should be obvious that this is encouraging inappropriate behavior (sexual harrasement) towards booth babes.

Just taking pictures is highly appropriate: that's one of the main reason why they are there, whether you like it or not. I can't blame EA if anyone crosses the line, people should be able to think for themselves.

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Heh. You have no idea how pathetic enough Comic-Con attendees can be, apparently.

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