Oluseyi beat me to it.

The contest only asks you to have your picture taken with 'booth babes' -- who's paid position is to look pretty and have their picture taken with people. The contest isn't asking you to sexually assault them in any fashion but simply partake in the job these girls get paid to do.

Or am I missing some fine print somewhere...

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
I think you're conflating issues. Some people harass female convention workers, and that is inappropriate and security should be on hand to restrain and eject such people. But this is a marketing flyer, and to extract two phrases while ignoring the context is to demand for a dumbing down of the conversation. What you should have done, in my opinion, is say, "I find this distasteful. Obviously I don't think EA is advocating sexual harassment, but I think that the material could be interpreted as such particularly by those who are already predisposed to such behavior - a problem that is endemic, but goes largely unnoticed and/or unreported." That would have been a starting point for a reasoned conversation about the real point: sexual harassment.

What you've done instead is begin with an overreaction to an incidental, which has set the people you ostensibly wish to engage in defensive mode, making it more difficult to raise your real issues: sexual harassment and objectification of real, live women at gamer-oriented events as a function of a boorish, male-oriented gamer culture.

You lost the opportunity with a poor opening gambit, having been distracted by an irrelevance. Three months from now nobody will remember this promotion, but the issues of harassment and objectification will still be with us and the discussion opportunity will have been lost.

You're right about that. I really really should have phrased my initial post better.
I must confess; I posted this under the mistaken assumption that most (or at least some) people would agree with me. Hence the "Look at what a douche EA is" tone I had. The follow up defensive replies got me to be defensive in turn and things kinda snowballed (avalanched?)
I phrased my initial post in such a way as to create a "me" vs. "all of you" dichotomy instead of accomplishing my real goal of bringing these sorts of issues to game developers attention.
I am not sorry for what I have said, for I believe every word of it. I am immensely sorry I phrased it in such a way as to make a productive discussion impossible.

If we could try and do that now, great. Though I realize that might not now be possible.
Otherwise I will endeavor to do better next time.

Edit: Trying to be more civil now:
My main concern is that people will misinterpret the contest (you'd be amazed at how people can misinterpret things), my secondary concern is that booth babes who don't work for IE, and other women in costumes will have to fend off people wanting to take pictures thus detracting from their convention going experience, I did not mean to imply that taking photos with booth babes was inherently sexual harrasement. Lastly I see this contest as an example of how women are represented in gamer culture, and how sometimes companies don't see a need to market to both genders.

The con-goers are insulted just as much as women are objectified in this scheme. "We're assuming most of you are pathetic enough to want to go on a date with a girl who is having dinner with you only to collect a paycheck." That said, it's not out of the question that the contest did make the weekend at least a bit more uncomfortable for some of the girls. For the hard-of-thinking, that's not to say that that the contest should have been forcibly shut down, but on the other hand, the "that's what they get paid for" excuse doesn't fly.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Now that Comic-Con is over, was any inappropriate behavior towards booth babes reported? If not, then this fuss is much ado about nothing.

Good question, but I wonder how likely booth babes are to report such incidents.

Quote: Original post by Osha
My main concern is that people will misinterpret the contest (you'd be amazed at how people can misinterpret things)...

It's a decent point. Given the same property and promotion, why not show us an alternative approach that would have yielded the same results without being as open to misinterpretation?

Quote: ...my secondary concern is that booth babes who don't work for IE, and other women in costumes will have to fend off people wanting to take pictures thus detracting from their convention going experience...

Hold up. Did you just suggest that people taking pictures of individuals attending Comic-Con in costume is a detraction?

Heh. Heheh. LOL.

Quote: Lastly I see this contest as an example of how women are represented in gamer culture, and how sometimes companies don't see a need to market to both genders.

Have you taken a look at the tuner and hot rod culture? Have you ever seen a commercial for a non-gaming product that inexplicably featured an attractive woman with suggestive overtones?

This is a larger societal issue, and stems from the fact that men find women sexually attractive, and it thus becomes a cheap way to make men take interest in or purchase an unrelated good. Is it a bad thing? Not exactly. It can be abused or handled carelessly, and most women don't like the ways most men really think about women, but so what? Material aimed at men may be marketed in ways unappealing to women. The game industry should create material that is aimed at women, as well as neutral material that is designed for and can be enjoyed by both men and women, but that doesn't mean it needs to stop creating material for men or marketing to that audience.

In our excessively profit-driven society, nothing will work as well as a coordinated strategy to have women purchase one iteration of a product en masse and then ditch it for a competitor when the sequel is released, citing unflattering representations as the reason they're gravitating to something else. That would get the industry's attention fast.

Quote: Original post by BerwynIrish
The con-goers are insulted just as much as women are objectified in this scheme. "We're assuming most of you are pathetic enough to want to go on a date with a girl who is having dinner with you only to collect a paycheck."

Heh. You have no idea how pathetic enough Comic-Con attendees can be, apparently.

I think everyone needs to stop feeling so hypothetically insulted, personally. [smile]

Quote: Original post by Osha
You're right about that. I really really should have phrased my initial post better.
I must confess; I posted this under the mistaken assumption that most (or at least some) people would agree with me. Hence the "Look at what a douche EA is" tone I had. The follow up defensive replies got me to be defensive in turn and things kinda snowballed (avalanched?)
I phrased my initial post in such a way as to create a "me" vs. "all of you" dichotomy instead of accomplishing my real goal of bringing these sorts of issues to game developers attention.
I am not sorry for what I have said, for I believe every word of it. I am immensely sorry I phrased it in such a way as to make a productive discussion impossible.

If we could try and do that now, great. Though I realize that might not now be possible.
Otherwise I will endeavor to do better next time.

Edit: Trying to be more civil now:
My main concern is that people will misinterpret the contest (you'd be amazed at how people can misinterpret things), my secondary concern is that booth babes who don't work for IE, and other women in costumes will have to fend off people wanting to take pictures thus detracting from their convention going experience, I did not mean to imply that taking photos with booth babes was inherently sexual harrasement. Lastly I see this contest as an example of how women are represented in gamer culture, and how sometimes companies don't see a need to market to both genders.

Ironcily, I think you may have found more people here agreeing with you had you made arguments that booth babes should not be a part of cons at all. (edit: looks like a few have been added while I wrote this post.)

I think Oluseyi's point about disclaimer ridden advertising said it best. There is always the one jack-ass that has to ruin it for everybody. I believe that a contest where people can constructively express themselves in sexy photos would actually be a healthy thing so long as people participating behaved responsibly. I don't believe that just because there are some people that don't act responsibily that such an activity should be cancelled altogether.

What if we apply your argument to another area of life? Consider that thousands (millions?) of people drive drunk. These people do not behave responsibly. Therefore, all drinking should be banned. Also, considering that many people drive irresponsibly even while sober, driving should be banned as well.

There's certainly nothing wrong with battling against stereotypes and harrasment. But banning activities that might be misinterpreted or otherwise spoiled by irresponsible jerks is not the best way to spread understanding and respect.

I also raised an eyebrow when I read about this contest (partly because it wasn't that obvious what it was for at first glance - it's for Dante's Inferno?). It's a pretty, uh, primal motivation for a contest. And it is very male targeted. I always feel very sceptical when a game can't win people over on its own merits and has to resort to titilation.

Incidently, it seems GDNet has decided to grace me with an Evony ad while I type this. How very appropriate. [rolleyes]

And yes, while I see the link to Dante's Inferno, it is telling that they specifically chose "Lust" instead of, say, "Gluttony" (which could also work at a con). Or "Wrath" (which wouldn't) or "Fraud" (which would be hard to show in a picture) [grin]

Quote: Original post by Osha
...
Lastly I see this contest as an example of how women are represented in gamer culture, and how sometimes companies don't see a need to market to both genders.

Well, let's discuss this a little then.

Female portrayal in game media is already on the table. With this in mind, let us examine the other side of the issue-- male portrayal. For every example of an 'unrealistically' sexually female protagonist or heroine, I could quite easily present an 'unrealistically' sexually male protagonist or hero. It's the customers reactions that shape how they are sold to.

For the sake of conversation let's reach into a related field-- fantasy storytelling. Look at the pure sexual fervor from females towards Edward Cullen. The reason that I mention this is that women have similar desires but choose a different medium to satisfy it. Is there anywhere near the magnitude of males swooning over a female fantasy storybook character that can even compare? (Without visual aids, mind you)

Breaking that down the issue (in my mind) doesn't have to do with what's offered but rather what's desired. Aside from very few examples a company exists to make money. If companies research showed that showing off males as eye-candy was a method to make huge amounts of money- they would do it in a heart beat. Especially if it meant they would be exploiting an untapped market. If there was less demand for the booth babes- or more demand for booth studs- the system would correct itself.

To distill my point, I think men are more visually stimulated than women so their cravings are easier satisfied by a medium such as gaming. And in response to this, game companies exploit that.

----

On a personal 'moral' level, I think it's fine. It's all fantasy unrealistic expectations on both sides. At least it's physically possible for a woman to have double-D breasts and a 24 inch waist - there's no surgery for a man to become a vampire.

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by Osha
My main concern is that people will misinterpret the contest (you'd be amazed at how people can misinterpret things)...

It's a decent point. Given the same property and promotion, why not show us an alternative approach that would have yielded the same results without being as open to misinterpretation?

You might think this detracts from the theme but I wouldn't use the phrase "acts of lust". Maybe "debauchery" or something. It shouldn't surprise you that I'm not the best person to go to to create this kind of advertisement :P

Quote:

Quote: ...my secondary concern is that booth babes who don't work for IE, and other women in costumes will have to fend off people wanting to take pictures thus detracting from their convention going experience...

Hold up. Did you just suggest that people taking pictures of individuals attending Comic-Con in costume is a detraction?

Heh. Heheh. LOL.

I meant to say that having lots of strangers come up and demand sexy pictures is a detraction.

Quote:

Quote: Lastly I see this contest as an example of how women are represented in gamer culture, and how sometimes companies don't see a need to market to both genders.

Have you taken a look at the tuner and hot rod culture? Have you ever seen a commercial for a non-gaming product that inexplicably featured an attractive woman with suggestive overtones?

This is a larger societal issue, and stems from the fact that men find women sexually attractive, and it thus becomes a cheap way to make men take interest in or purchase an unrelated good. Is it a bad thing? Not exactly. It can be abused or handled carelessly, and most women don't like the ways most men really think about women, but so what? Material aimed at men may be marketed in ways unappealing to women. The game industry should create material that is aimed at women, as well as neutral material that is designed for and can be enjoyed by both men and women, but that doesn't mean it needs to stop creating material for men or marketing to that audience.

In our excessively profit-driven society, nothing will work as well as a coordinated strategy to have women purchase one iteration of a product en masse and then ditch it for a competitor when the sequel is released, citing unflattering representations as the reason they're gravitating to something else. That would get the industry's attention fast.

I certainly agree with you that this is a wider societal issue. And I do not think the industry should stop marketing towards (straight) men. I'm even somewhat ok with those ridiculous eye-candy characters (Crimson Viper is a world class fighter and wears high heels and a tie over her cleavage? you gotta admit that's absurd) because let's face it, some of those male characters are pretty hot ;).
But I do think there are lines, and I do think they were crossed in this case.

I don't quit get where you're going with that last paragraph. But yes, it certainly would cause heads to turn. I can't imagine it actually happening; although some games (essentially rape simulation games) have been removed from amazon.com after enough people, mainly women, complained.

Edit the first:

Quote: Original post by kseh
I think Oluseyi's point about disclaimer ridden advertising said it best. There is always the one jack-ass that has to ruin it for everybody. I believe that a contest where people can constructively express themselves in sexy photos would actually be a healthy thing so long as people participating behaved responsibly. I don't believe that just because there are some people that don't act responsibily that such an activity should be cancelled altogether.

Actually, if it weren't for those jackasses I would have no problem with this. If we lived in a world where everyone respected everyone else. But we don't, and personally, I think this ad really encourages those people.

Edit the second:

Quote: Original post by necreia
On a personal 'moral' level, I think it's fine. It's all fantasy unrealistic expectations on both sides. At least it's physically possible for a woman to have double-D breasts and a 24 inch waist - there's no surgery for a man to become a vampire.

There are women vampires that are designed to be sexy too (bloodrayne anyone)
Apart from that, women have a lot of self-esteem issues due to societies image of the ideal of feminine beauty. In lots of ways there's more pressure on women to be beautiful then on men to be beautiful or handsome.

Edit the third:

Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid
Incidently, it seems GDNet has decided to grace me with an Evony ad while I type this. How very appropriate.

Ha! "Play discreetly NOW my lord" :D

Edit the forth:

Quote: Original post by necreia
Breaking that down the issue (in my mind) doesn't have to do with what's offered but rather what's desired. Aside from very few examples a company exists to make money. If companies research showed that showing off males as eye-candy was a method to make huge amounts of money- they would do it in a heart beat. Especially if it meant they would be exploiting an untapped market. If there was less demand for the booth babes- or more demand for booth studs- the system would correct itself.

Yeah, I don't want to imply that I think these things should be illegal. I do want to work on changing culture so that they're no longer profitable.

Quote: Original post by Osha
I meant to say that having lots of strangers come up and demand sexy pictures is a detraction.

Request, not demand. Most people are going to request. Some idiots are going to be boorish and effectively demand, but idiots are going to be idiots regardless of venue.

Quote:
But I do think there are lines, and I do think they were crossed in this case.

The only line you can demonstrably indicate was crossed was your own sense of propriety. Which is fine, but not particularly convincing to a public at large.

(I don't find Crimson Viper so much hot as absurd, mostly because of that chest-free shirt with the tie over the cleavage. Then again, I don't find video game characters hot; I watch porn instead.)

Quote: I don't quit get where you're going with that last paragraph. But yes, it certainly would cause heads to turn. I can't imagine it actually happening; although some games (essentially rape simulation games) have been removed from amazon.com after enough people, mainly women, complained.

Rape games are on the fringes, plus the reaction of American consumers is hardly universal - games like RapeLay are not the isolated shockers in Japan that they are here; Eroge is an entire genre.

My point, in any case, is that mounting an economic argument will be more successful at convincing/compelling the manufacturers and publishers to change than any moral one. You can't pay bills (for private jets, hookers and cocaine, of course) with morality.

Quote: Yeah, I don't want to imply that I think these things should be illegal. I do want to work on changing culture so that they're no longer profitable.

You don't like it, don't buy it, but leave those of us who do like it well alone.