Some semi-related reading material on the subject from Jeff Vogel: link.

Quote: Original post by Yann L

Quote: Original post by Naurava kulkuri
My freetime is my freetime. The same goes applies to NDAs etc.

It does absolutely not apply to an NDA. Once you signed an NDA, you're 'in' 24/7, and that until you reach the expiry date of the NDA, or some other exit clause. Work versus free time has absolutely no relevance here. You can't just expose corporate trade secrets just because you happen to be on your free time...

I worded poorly. Here some companies try to restricts one's rights to work by NDAs. I've seen clauses in NDAs (or employment contracts) that resigning and working to other company in some geographical area or any of the domains the former company had presence is seen as a violation against the NDA.

Of course disclosing company secrets to competitors or other appropriately detrimental action is a violation against a NDA done anytime it's being legally enforced, but the burden of proof is not on the departed employee and it can't be used to restrict one's choice to choose to work somewhere else. I hope this clarifies what I meant.

<edit
Or that not giving one's own products done one's freetime is against the NDA by some vague reasoning going along lines using knowledge gained during work. Even better ones are those which claim the contents of the NDA agreement cannot be disclosed to anyone, including lawyers. But I'll stop now. :-)

[Edited by - Naurava kulkuri on July 21, 2009 10:27:33 AM]

Quote: Original post by Naurava kulkuri
I worded poorly. Here some companies try to restricts one's rights to work by NDAs. I've seen clauses in NDAs (or employment contracts) that resigning and working to other company in some geographical area or any of the domains the former company had presence is seen as a violation against the NDA.

Ah, the old "you can't work for our competitors for X months/years" clause. I believe this also can't be enforced in the UK unless they pay you for that period (maybe even then it's not allowed, possibly).

Yeah, the typical "can't work for competitor for time x" is not enforceable in most sane jurisdictions.

However, one should be careful about the "knowledge gained through work" argument. Say you are developing some super-advanced AI at work, signed an NDA related to that work, and develop an advanced AI system in your free time. In that case, the NDA will definitely hold. Even if the burden of proof is often (depends on jurisdiction) on the employer, they usually manage to get quite a few very convincing arguments for such cases.

But if you develop software in your free time that is unrelated to what you do at work, then you're usually fine (but exceptions apply, check with a lawyer before actually doing this !)

They actually say that what you learn in work can't be used at other places? I mean, to a certain point, that makes sense, but anything that general seems ludicrous. Lets say you learn how to develop an XBox game, then go to another company and develop an XBox game for them. That should not be prohibited. But if you learn some company secret, i.e. some pathfinding algorithm that they spend money to discover, that should not be able to be passed on. Is this the case, or..?

Quote: Original post by Jedimace
They actually say that what you learn in work can't be used at other places? I mean, to a certain point, that makes sense, but anything that general seems ludicrous.

What they teach you, so that you are able to do your work, is their intellectual property. Essentially, what you learn in this context belongs to them.

Quote: Original post by Jedimace
Lets say you learn how to develop an XBox game, then go to another company and develop an XBox game for them. That should not be prohibited. But if you learn some company secret, i.e. some pathfinding algorithm that they spend money to discover, that should not be able to be passed on.

The information on how to develop on XBox game could be just as valuable, or even more valuable to a company than a pathfinding algorithm. Essentially, if they decide to give you information that belongs to them (or that they have sublicensed), as part of your employment contract, then they can regulate how you are allowed to use this information. Now, the XBox example is not a good one, because this is non-exclusively sub-licensed information from a third party (Microsoft). If you work for company A developing XBox games, you can obviously go to company B and continue to develop XBox games, unless you are using confidential information from company A to do so.

If you independently develop such technology yourself, without their help, in your free time, then things look different.

Ok, I get that. But lets say you learn some new programming language for your job, and it was an open source language, you could still go home and use that language to make a game, as long as you don't use any first party information? You can still use things that technically belong to a third party with permission from that third party?

Quote: Original post by Jedimace
Ok, I get that. But lets say you learn some new programming language for your job, and it was an open source language, you could still go home and use that language to make a game, as long as you don't use any first party information?

Of course. NDAs only regulate the use of confidential information you will get in contact with as part of your employment. It does not limit you in using publicly available information. Learning eg. C++ as part of your job and using it on personal projects later on is obviously not an issue. However, learning about non-public and confidential GPU microcode at work, and then using that in an open source project is a breach of NDA.

Quote: Original post by Jedimace
You can still use things that technically belong to a third party with permission from that third party?

You can essentially do anything, if you have permission from the IP holder.

Quote: Original post by Yann L
But if you develop software in your free time that is unrelated to what you do at work, then you're usually fine (but exceptions apply, check with a lawyer before actually doing this !)

I know the Finnish system rather well. I wouldn't try my "luck" elsewhere, these are tricky questions.

Quote: Original post by Yann L
What they teach you, so that you are able to do your work, is their intellectual property. Essentially, what you learn in this context belongs to them.

This is used in the reasoning I mentioned concerning working to competitors or perceived competitors.

Quote: Original post by Yann L
However, learning about non-public and confidential GPU microcode at work, and then using that in an open source project is a breach of NDA.

Here too this would be a breach of a NDA. However (as far as I'm aware :)), I could use this gained knowledge in other company if it's not competing in the same market segment. Provided that the other, new company had the appropriate permissions to use that was under NDA in the former company.

I have a feeling non-compete clauses are rather restricted here compared to many other jurisdictions. They aren't enforceable for that a long period of time (I think I've seen one case where six months was considered a maximum for a certain position) and one can get compensation afterwards if being foolish enough to sign such a contract without an appropriate compensation.

But all in all, these are tricky issues depending on many details. What I write here probably doesn't apply as such elsewhere in Europe.

Quote: Original post by d000hg

Quote: Original post by Naurava kulkuri
I worded poorly. Here some companies try to restricts one's rights to work by NDAs. I've seen clauses in NDAs (or employment contracts) that resigning and working to other company in some geographical area or any of the domains the former company had presence is seen as a violation against the NDA.

Ah, the old "you can't work for our competitors for X months/years" clause. I believe this also can't be enforced in the UK unless they pay you for that period (maybe even then it's not allowed, possibly).

It's known as a non-compete clause. IANAL, but as far as I can tell it's enforceable in most jurisdictions so long as it's reasonable and the employer can demonstrate reasonable business interest, etc. Let's just say it's not something you should assume either way unless you have talked to a contract lawyer.

As far as work and projects developed on your own time, our employee contracts have a clause stating that anything we create, whether it be on our own time or at work, belongs to the company. However, there is a form where we can declare our works, and such work becomes exempt from the clause. But if you've been developing a game in your free time and decide to sell it without declaring it to the company for instance, they could go after you for it.