Hello everyone! =D I'm working on a rune system which should be able to represent - nearly - all the possible spells ever. I was doing this both for computer and non computer games ( D&D sessions :3 ). It should be possible to read a spell written in this way and to have a general concept of it ( though it does not mean that the time spent for the reading is few ). These are some examples of little portions of a possible spell for getting you an idea of the general concept I have in mind ( I was imagining a spell as being composed of 100, even 200 symbols ): MAGIC The type of magic this system represents is, at the low grade, made of a sort of energy. The sorcerer summons that energy and then, through the rune symbols he defines the general shape of the spell he wants to cast. The spoken part of the spell defines it perfectly. This is my classification of spells: - Invocation: all sort of energies ( lightning, fireball, telepathy.. ) - Evocation: all sort of physical bodies. ( rocks, water, wind.. ) - Lifestream: all sort of effects which affects living/partially intelligent/undead things ( illusions, healing, controlling undeads ) For particularly complicated spells, it is possible to combine 2 different spells in one ( for example, iron body would be an Evocation/Lifestream spell ). Invocation and Evocation spells are represented very similarly: both are made of 3 components, shape, element and effect. Shape and element are self-explanatory, the effect defines if the result of the spell is static or thrown, and which direction/distance the spell starts. - Example: Fireball. Invocation, sphere, fire, thrown, to the targeted enemy, 0 ( starts from the caster ) Lifestream spells lack the effect component, since I imagine them working in a restricted area around the caster, which can be maybe dependent on the type of spell ( healings are on contact, controlling undeads works in a little radius around the caster or something like this ). Instead of the shape component, it has the target component, which determines the number of targets and if the spell will work upon their bodies or their minds. The element component specifies life/death. Life is used to obtain good effects, like healing, or putting in a restoration sleep someone. Death is used to procure an harmful/neutral effect. - Example: Healing a teammate. Lifestream, 1, body, life. - Example: Putting to sleep 4 enemies. Lifestream, 4, mind, death. RUNES I was imagining a rune spell as a sort of circuit, in which the magic energy evocated by the caster flows activating the various parts of the whole spell. A rune spell is made of symbols, which are divided by categories. Categories define a symbol purpose. Also, each type of symbol has 3 different levels of power, which can be seen by the dimension of the symbol. Higher level symbols MUST be supported by lower level symbols to work. Also, mass doesn't mean power, that is a lot of low level symbols can create a large effect, but of low power, while a single high level symbol can create a small effect but very intense. Now, my questions. Assuming that the spell classification that I have done is correct ( which it may be not ), what are the symbol categories I should use, and what rules should I use to arrange them to have a final result which is (1) nice to see, (2) readable, (3) large (100+ symbols) ? The three I've put in the image are the basic categories I have in mind, which are: symbols to start the spell and maybe used to define the school of the spell; connection symbols to attach distant parts; power symbols which summons the power of the spell. The problem is that, to keep the spell large, there should be few categories, and the meaning comes through their disposition, but I've not yet finded a way that I like. Any feedback is more than appreciated, thank you in advance =D

i really like the idea but the symbols you use are a bit unreadable. Why don't you give them colors so that even at a glance it would be easy to distinguish between them. And if you implement this into a game you should do like secret combinations give far more powerful spells.
other than that great idea! i love it :D

I agree, it looks like you have a good start here. Here's my suggestions:

* For readability, each rune needs to have a unique and distinct shape. You have uniqueness already, but the differences between runes are subtle. You need more variation between runes. Here's some possibilities:
** Different types of lines in the outer circles. You're currently using only curved strokes. You could use straight strokes, jagged strokes, etc.
** Different types of fills for the center of each rune. Right now they're all filled. You could have filled, unfilled, half-filled, bullseye, etc. You could also just have a glyph in the center of each rune that names it, and that glyph would be designed along more traditional lines.
** Different colors. Simple enough.

* For rune types, you've already named different types of runes: spell type (invocation, evocation, healing), target/shape, element, count, etc. Breaking these down to more detailed levels should rapidly get you dozens of runes. However, personally, I'd recommend against having explicit counts or ranges in your spells. Instead, the count and range should be derived from the power placed in the spell.

This nicely means that the big, impressive spells look visually distinct from the less powerful ones, since they need to use different runes to channel the extra power. For example, the three runes in the top-left of your image look basically similar, but the small one could be for weak spells and the large one for strong ones. If you think of those runes as "power sources", then they "feed" effect runes attached to them. That large rune then represents a "level 3" effect, which could be hooked up to, say, a single Fire Blast effect, creating a single, huge gout of flame. Or it could be hooked up to three Fire Blasts, each of which would receive only a portion of the power but could be directed independently.

Under this model, you would look at a spell and read it as starting from a power source rune, then running out through the connected runes, which alter the energy as it passes through them. Eventually the energy reaches a "release" rune, at which point the spell is activated. So for example, your element runes would all have 1 input edge and 1 output edge, since they just "flavor" the energy that passes through them. You could have "junction" runes that let you combine effects -- for example, a large junction rune with 3 inputs and 1 output would let you take in multiple elements (fire, water, and air to make steam, say), or multiple spell types (accepting mixed invocation and lifestream energy).

So I see the following rune types:
* Spell type runes, of varying sizes. Let's say 5 spell sizes (and if you need even bigger, you just repeat the 5th size over and over again). That's 15 runes.
* Element type runes. As few as 4, as many as far, far too many. Fire, water, earth, air, ice, rock, crystal, wood, sun, moon, vacuum, magma, etc. You can pretty much just keep piling up runes here as you see fit. Let's leave it at 10, though.
* Shape runes. Bolt, lance, ball, shell, wall, explosion, implosion, et cetera. Again, there's a lot of different shapes you can make; just look through a D&D spellbook sometime.
* Release runes. Outward from the caster, appearing out of nowhere in a certain area, rising from the ground, falling from the sky, et cetera.

All in all, a good 30 or so runes here. What you could do to really multiply the number of runes is to make one of these rune types be absorbed into another rune. For example, you could make the element runes instead be modifiers on the shapes and colors of release runes (or shape runes, or spell type runes). If you have 5 release runes and 10 element runes, and you instead merge the two, you end up with 50 release/element runes.

How exactly are you planning to implement this system in game?

Will the player be able to experiment with rune combinations and "create" their own spells?

Will it be as in Bard's Tale, where you enter in a specific combination of characters to cast certain spells, or in this case enter in the runes?

Will there be the ability to save spell presets, so that the player can readily access their favorite spells?

Will there be preset spells that cover much of the basics, so that players not interested in such a system aren't turned off the game completely, and can just play without experimentation?

I see great potential in this, though I agree that some color at least is needed. As of now, the player would spend some time deciphering these runes, and this might turn some people off.

As to what you need, just think of the basics. First off, what kind of view point and combat is the game going to use?

If it is isometric (think Ultima 6 and 7 or The Summoning), then you can have spherical, explosive, cone, and straight line effects, instants (which hit the target without an animation, think a sudden wracking of the target's nervous system). You can have the straight line be done in streams, short bolts, or very small round missiles. Or even the classic arrow. And lets not forget encasing an enemy's head in a block of ice.

Then you have elemental and damage types. Fire Water, Earth Air (all have Kings in their lair), sonic, mental, poison, acid, physical, and electrical. Effects which resist these things as well as the basic offensive effects.

Then you can have status effects, like diseased, nauseated, poisoned, stoned, Turned to Stone, Politician, Lycanthrope, etc...

You can also have defense spells; spheres, floating discs, and flat resistance boosting effects.

Utility; mapping, light, compass, clairvoyance, X ray vision, picking locks, disarming traps, cooking rats, etc...

It should be fairly simple to create 100+ spells like that. You can use a variable power level for all spells as stated to help keep them all useful without creating redundant spells later on (when you want a light spell that lasts 3 days straight.)

@emforce: I'm really glad you like it =D
I made a colored version of the image in the first post. Red symbols are the power ones, and the blu is just a connector.



@Derakon: I REALLY like the idea of the start/exit runes. I didn't thought about this possibility. Also, variating the centers is nice, I think I'll do that to create other power levels.
But about multiplying the number of type runes, I'm not sure. Remembering a LOT of types of runes ( and also ofc creating them ) could be really difficult. I was thinking about few kind of runes, creating meaning through their disposition and pattern.
So in the end the spell wouldn't be on "which runes did the energy touch?", but on "which path did the energy go?"
It would be more on creating a "circuit" than inventing millions of different runes. Would this work? I still have no idea on how to create a similar system, it would be like creating a sort of language, I guess.

@domhnall4h: I'm still not implementing this in a game, I wanted first to make sure to create a working system, and then simplify it to respond to some possible game needs.
However, if I will add this to a game, surely players will be able to experiment with it, while basics will automatically be given, also to make comparisons.
About presets, well, why not. It shouldn't be so difficult to implement.
Also, the rune experimentation will be separated by the actual casting: when you create a spell, you must be in at least a lab where you can research, and when a working spell is created, the player can assign an icon to it to be easily retrieved.
The actual rune would be like a special light effect that appears when the spell is casted.

I brought up the multiplication because you mentioned wanting 100 different runes, and that's one way to achieve that. I think it'd be hard to achieve that many runes without using some similar mechanism, since you'd be hard-pressed in a gameplay context to come up with 100 useful spell attributes.

What you're describing is indeed much like making a language, albeit with a very specific purpose. Each spell is a sentence that describes the effects of the spell; channeling power through the sentence causes the effects to be made manifest.

Ups, I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that. I wanted to say that I imagined a spell made of 100+ runes, intended as average number, not types.

To make a clear example, let's say I have to put an element ( like fire, thunder and so on ) in my spell. If I had a lot of different types of runes, I could just create one for every element I need. I don't like it this way though.
My idea was in having a sort of 'element' symbol, and if I put 3 of them in a triangle with the point up I mean fire, if I put them in a triangle with the point down I mean thunder, and so on.. I could use squares, spirals, or even 2/3 different symbols to have a LOT of possible combinations and then organizing them.

This is, unfortunately, the part in which I lack competence. I've spent quite some time thinking about a system working this way and being also a little original: just putting fire, circle and launch in sequence to create a fireball is quite simple and boring, don't you agree?

Quote:

Original post by Svalorzen @domhnall4h: I'm still not implementing this in a game, I wanted first to make sure to create a working system, and then simplify it to respond to some possible game needs. However, if I will add this to a game, surely players will be able to experiment with it, while basics will automatically be given, also to make comparisons. About presets, well, why not. It shouldn't be so difficult to implement. Also, the rune experimentation will be separated by the actual casting: when you create a spell, you must be in at least a lab where you can research, and when a working spell is created, the player can assign an icon to it to be easily retrieved. The actual rune would be like a special light effect that appears when the spell is casted.

Ah. I see. Sounds like it would work well in a game once banged out though.

Going by about 9 different damage types times about 8 different fields of effect, you have an easy total of about 72 differing offensive spells. You can have an additional 3 defensive-type fields of effect, adding 27 spells. Healing you only need a counter to various status effects, say 6 of those, and basic health healing, so 7 more there. Add 1 more if you wish to have a group healing effect, 1 for raising the dead, and then any more comprehensive healing (covering status effects, dismemberment, as well as hp healing) you want. Say 12 healing spells.

Utility, you only desperately need maybe a dozen specific effects. Then you have summons, with which the sky is basically the limit. Base maybe a dozen or so basic elemental summons, plus the animate dead tree of 3 to 5 variants of undead.

Attack = 72
Healing = 12
Utility = 12
Defense = 27
Summons = 15

Total - 138

This is boiling it down to a basic array of effects, with out getting into any specialized effects you can come up with (like Turn Undead or Freezing water). The 5th category also can be expanded as much as you want to create critters to summon. There's your 100+ spells.

Balancing can be simple; since most of the offensive magic is carbon copies of each other, just have a flat damage rate, with a cost-per-tile that the spell effects. Say 1d6 damage/target, with a 2sp/tile cost. Have variable power levels to allow for those flashy 20d6 damage spells later on.

This covers the basic level of magic; which could be set up in the presets, at least partially.

As to making up larger combinations, That gets tricky. However, remember that each rune has a specific effect, and then get creative. Adding a fire rune to a summon + skeleton would create a flaming skeleton. Add in a giant rune to make it a huge flaming pile of bones. Add a explosion rune to make it go BOOM! on being killed (preferably, the AI or player would place it far enough away that it would do so safely, for the caster). Add a music rune to have the thing sit there and play "We Are The World" until the guitar strings sever all it's fingers, THEN it goes BOOM!

I had the basics of a similar system hammered out for my own RPG, but I decided it was too much to start with. I went with a classical spell system, though with most spells having multiple effects. What I've posted generally steals from my own work, though you've gotten a lot farther and probably won't forget about it's existence later.

*EDIT*

Another thing you may consider is randomizing the effects on some runes. This would work best on a computer, and would be harder to implement and balance, but would allow for a different spell every game (or caster) from the same combination of runes.

[Edited by - domhnall4h on June 30, 2009 8:39:41 PM]

Quote:

Original post by domhnall4h Going by about 9 different damage types times about 8 different fields of effect, you have an easy total of about 72 differing offensive spells. You can have an additional 3 defensive-type fields of effect, adding 27 spells. Healing you only need a counter to various status effects, say 6 of those, and basic health healing, so 7 more there. Add 1 more if you wish to have a group healing effect, 1 for raising the dead, and then any more comprehensive healing (covering status effects, dismemberment, as well as hp healing) you want. Say 12 healing spells. Utility, you only desperately need maybe a dozen specific effects. Then you have summons, with which the sky is basically the limit. Base maybe a dozen or so basic elemental summons, plus the animate dead tree of 3 to 5 variants of undead. Attack = 72 Healing = 12 Utility = 12 Defense = 27 Summons = 15 Total - 138

The concept sounds great but I would not make it as easy as described here. Instead you could try define something like a script language working on the runestructure so that nearly all possible combinations have an effect. The interesting point would be to research to find combinations that work most best because they focus the energy best on the target or combine different elements for special synergetic effects and stuff like that.

Creating and balancing something like that will be hard. But since you should build this into a single player game (otherwise everyone will use the best known configurations after someone posted the online) you dont have to aim for pefect balance so it is doable.

For your original questions, 1 and 2, having different kinds of symbols besides those round, maze-like ones would be good. Seeing a spell made entirely of slightly different round symbols will a.) get boring and b.) be hard to read. But if you have different classes of symbols, you have the possibility of different spells having totally different visual signatures. And when there is a spell that combines different spell types, the mixture of different symbol types will give you a feel for the fusion of different elements in the spell.

As for the rest, you're basically trying to create a whole, fairly complete language. It seems that this rune language will need to be able to describe all manner of relationships between objects and the energy that must pass between them. This is going to be hard. Fun, probably, but hard.