hi, i would like to create an rpg,where stats dont matter on balanced areas, e.g having a level 9999999999 player will be same to having a level 10 player. most places in game should be balanced e.g pvp and dungeons (balanced so anyone can enter). pros : 1) dungeons for all (a lv 9999999 defender has equal power to lv 1 defender ). all can go to dungeons without restrictions. 2) pvp for all ( same chances to win no matter the level ). 3) players will continue to look it as rpg as their stats will increase, they will be able to enter unbalanced areas (where stats matter) to enjoy their one-shoting powers. 4) you can try ganking low level creatures, but since they have equal power, you may lose. 5) players wont become 'i care only for level/loot' freaks, but will be free to explore the game, help their friends in dungeons. fun : imagine a raid of newly created lv1 gnome rogues, destroying the opponent faction city, and all its citizens. Questions : 1) Will rpg players enjoy that system ? Since only in unbalanced areas they will enjoy their unlimited powers, will that stop the feeling of progression thus making them quit ? currently i am seeing of making the battle system as this : Your heals, attacks, defense against attacks, parries , dodges will give xp, when the xp bar fills you gain a stat point. So basically you will get 1-2 stat points in battle. It will be easy to get 100 stat points in an hour. You will be able to choose where to asign your stats let say that someone assigns it like this : 0 : strength (physical damage done) 200 : defense (reduces physical damage taken) 200 : spell damage (damage done from spells) 200 : willpower (chance to hit with status effects like fear, poisons, instant-death, zombify ... , knockback ) 200 : resistance (reduces damage taken from spells and chance of status effects to hit you) 400 : healing (how powerfull your heals are) total stats used : 1200. so that player will have assigned 30% of his stats in healing ((400/1200)*100%). stats will be saved as 'long' type (because stats increase really fast). (not floats or double because of arithimitic errors e.g a+1 != a+1 where a: is a big number. ) spells : you may have bought more spells than your opponent. e.g you may have 100 spells while opponent has only 10. balanced duels / dungeons : the only option i see to achieve having balanced stats is to use only your stat percentage as stats. Some extra stats will be added to your character e.g extra health, defense, resistance (so that you cant create a character with 1hp that can kill everyone with 1 hit). so at end the formula will look like this ( stats + item_stats + extra_stats ) / stats_used. cons : i wont be able to have stats that increase the mana pool and mana regeneration, because lets say that a lv 9999999 player has 9999999 mana, so his spells will basically have no cost which would be unfair. Same for dodge, hit, parry stats. So these stats (mana,dodge,parry,+critical) will come from items or from class chosen (e.g a rogue will have passive +30% dodge). These means that all spells will have a predefined mana cost. i am also thinking of giving xp not only on combat but from other activities like doing quests,stealing,eating,opening chests,removing traps,any proffision, etc. So that players wont be forced to combat to level up. Possibly gain xp from talking to npc ? (even if you meet them again, they will have a cooldown when you talk them to give you xp to avoid abuse). items will also be balanced, which means that as you level up, items should level up along with you. Or their power depends on your stats like giving +10% defense your total stats. or having 10% chance to poison enemy. edit : a) i noticed 1 drawback, that players while they play if they use only stat percentage as stats then they will do small amount of damage to enemy, which they wont like, (they hit for 10 damage from a enemy with 100 health). so here are some other way of stat balancing : b) level up defending monster to match your level (so the monster will have same amount of basic stats as you). Anyone wanna post any ideas, what they like/dislike about this ? thanks, [Edited by - titanfantasy on June 29, 2009 4:58:47 AM]

Correct me if I'm wrong, what you mean here is that a lvl 1 player can win a lvl 99999 player easily in most situations and areas?

If this is true, I believe you will alienate a lot of your player base. Levels = power formula has been ingrained into most of the players, and seeing your lvl 99999 that you invested weeks in to be on par with a lvl 1 player is not going to sit well with a lot of people.

Players want to feel rewarded for the time and effort they put into a game, seeing their character getting more and more powerful is one of the way RPGs reward a player.

Quote:

Original post by titanfantasy stats will be saved as 'long' type (because stats increase really fast). (not floats or double because of arithimitic errors e.g a+1 != a+1 where a: is a big number. )

I bring this small, pointless quote out of your large wall of text for one reason; it's small and pointless. You should not be considering it now: A) it's an implementation detail and really should not be even thought of at this point. B) in C and C++ and on most modern PC platforms, long is 32-bits just like int, so pointing out one over the other is unnecessary. Other languages may vary, of course. C) Even at 1000 points an hour, it would take you 245 years of continuous play to wrap a signed 32-bit integer. D) Of all the implementation details, this is a highly unimportant one.

So the point of this was to show how thinking of these little things too far ahead of time is just a waste of time. How you store numbers is the least of your concerns when trying to shake up the leveling process. This is a matter of the color of the bicycle shed.

Quote:

a lvl 1 player can win a lvl 99999 player easily in most situations and areas?

easily if he is skilled. Basically they will have they same chance to win.
If the high level player has much much much better items he maybe like 50% stronger.

1) as i mentioned if they want to feel their power, they will go to unbalanced areas ...

2)

Quote:

Levels = power formula has been ingrained into most of the players, and seeing your lvl 99999 that you invested weeks in to be on par with a lvl 1 player is not going to sit well with a lot of people.

Isnt this the biggest problem of rpgs, i mean you have to grind for hours killing the same mob unlimited times, just for power.
These games dont really on skills but on most overpowered_class/item_combo at max level.

Even in wow when you reach the level cap, it is the same, most players are lv 80, and have the best items (obtained from arena) and if you see the power diffrence between items may be like +3-5 stamina. So even wow is capped.

the difference here is that you dont have to grind (or use ebay accounts), to enjoy pvp. Wow pvp is not balanced before lv 80.

3)

Quote:

seeing your lvl 99999 that you invested weeks

well this is a good thing also, since you wont have to invest your time for combat.

4) i forgot to mention the following :
Players can get spells with a system like final fantasy tactics .
E.g you can learn spells from multiple classes.

so for those who strive only for power, they will have as goals to obtain all spells of the game of all classes, and best items (not much power diffrence).
Maybe also do quests to get items that change your appearance.

What if the overall total of the stats doesn't increase over time, but the variation from a median can.

In most stat systems when you gain a level you get X amount of point you can add to your stats.

However, in this new system, if you increase a stat, you have to decrease other stats to compensate. The amount of points you can move increases with your level, but not the total of the points in the stats.

For example:
If you had these stats at these values at level 1
Strength = 1000
Health = 1000
Mind = 1000
Reflex = 1000

At each level you get to move 10 points between the stats so at level 2 you might have:
Strength = 990
Health = 1000
Mind = 1010
Reflex = 1000

At level 10 you might have:
Strength = 910
Health = 1000
Mind = 1050
Reflex = 1040

And so forth. OF course, you could have a larger or smaller amount of points that can be moved each level if you wanted.

This way, all characters are equal, but they become more specialised over time. So a level 1 character could conceivably enter a level 20 dungeon, but they might not have as easy a time as one who had become a specialist in their field.

It would also make it that new characters are more flexible in what they could do but they just would not be as effective in any one field. They would be a Jack of all trades master of none). This would actually make low level characters an asset, but would also give high level characters a role within the group.

High level characters would feel advancement as they would become better at their given field (a low level fighter would not hit as hard as a high level fighter that had placed points their other stats into strength).

If gear needed a certain level of stat to be able to be used (say a two handed sword needing a 1100 strength before it can be wielded), or special features to be used (anyone can wield a 2 handed sword, but to use the "Overhead Cleave" power of it you need 1100 Strength, or any character can wield the Illuminatus wand and create light and fire off some minor spell with it, but to unleash the "fireball" power you need to have 1200 Mind).

This way high level characters have a non linear edge over the lower level characters, but Lower level characters still ahve a chance against them.

edharan,
i really like your idea, it is a very good way of balancing the game.
Since i am an irresolute character, i will try to implement all ways and let user,
choose what he prefers as leveling method.

An alternative to leveling that I find interesting is simply to allow the character to gain reputation, contacts, and followers instead of levels.

What I am trying to say is that, almost all players will automatically associate levels with power, by using the term 'level' you are implicitly telling your players that they are getting stronger, which in fact they are not. In doing so you are setting up your players to be disappointed, and disappointed players will either start flaming your forums or simply quit the game, or both.

You can use other terms say specialisation rank or specialist title (like archer or swordsman) to indicate to players that they are simply becoming more specialised in a class instead of gaining more power.

One last point, personally I feel power progression is one of the core part of RPGs, be it single player or MMORPGS. Players like the feeling that they are getting stronger as they play the game, exploring its environs and fulfilling quests. By taking such an important part of a RPG experience away, if feels as if I am playing an action game where you 'unlock' newer spells as you play through the game.

The problem of high level and overpowered characters bullying other low level characters can be easily solved with gameplay design or simple 'rules'. For example PvE zones that allows these players to play without fear of being bullied, while the adventurous can try PvP zones.

Rather than having a leveling/stat system which applies only to portions of the game, why don't you instead give a sense of progression through plot (possibly quests must be accomplished to obtain the key to each dungeon for the first time), acquisition of wealth, that wealth used to customize the character's looks and mount/pet/house, level of alignment with each faction earned, level of affection with major NPCs earned, climbing the crafting tech tree, and pvp score record.

In this system a character's internal stats would not change, but they would have a number of equipment slots where they could equip jewels or DNA sequences or whatever you want to call it, but these would give the player spells beyond the basic ones, give them elemental attributes while they would start neutral, and could as Edtharan suggests unbalance the player in a useful way, like by trading defense for speed or vice versa.

Just as a personal thing, I would hope there would be some way to use cleverness to solo dungeons and get some kind of bonus for this achievement. One of the things I really dislike about current MMOs is that when I finally get big enough to solo a dungeon it's valueless because I probably get no XP and no good loot.

I like the idea of a statless rpg. At least in terms of everyone always being on equal footing.

This is done successfully in many other types of online games. (first person shooters being the largest that I can think of) The thing about RPGs is that you want to give players something to do. This is usually solved with a grinding/leveling system. (what I'd like to call the "lazy development" way)

In my opinion, when your game has grinding/leveling, you have run out of ideas as a game designer. It's totally possible to have a content rich and fun to play game without forcing players to level to the highest possible level just to be able to "fully play" the game.

This is why I stopped playing WoW. I never really had an interest in the game but my girlfriend bugged me into playing it with her. I got to around level 60 with her basically leading me around and "leveling me". I pretty much spent a few weeks just following her as she basically played the game for me. I found it an enormous waste of time and not really much fun at all. The "game" doesn't even really start until you reach the highest level, where you can actually compete with others more fairly and stand a chance against the stronger players.

I found myself trying to PVP in the battlegrounds and that was also not any fun whatsoever. In order to stand any chance at winning (and having fun) you had to be at the highest level for that battleground (19,29,39,49,etc) you also had to have some seriously nice gear as there are people who are "twinked" to have the best gear at the highest possible level. The game becomes a game of numbers and time invested instead of a game of skill. Which to me, is very unappealing.

As mentioned in above posts, there are many ways to give players something to do/earn without having leveling. For one, players can have a tally of kills/deaths to show how good they are at killing other players. This actually means something since everyone has equal stats and winning a match is mostly determined by skill.

If you're concerned about how a player advances in the world itself, just set up real world type obstacles that prevent them from getting too far into the world too fast. Keys to unlock doors, bridges that must be built to access new areas, special equipment needed to get somewhere, etc. Wealth and popularity also play a big factor in achievement.

Personally I wonder what a game like WoW would be like if all players had the same fighting level and only their classes seperated what their strengths/weaknesses are. All of those meaningless grind quests could be replaced with fun content or at least use all of those man hours spent making the quest content and focus it towards hosted events where players can compete with eachother for prizes and fame.

My girlfriend is level 80 and plays WoW nearly every day, and she pretty much just helps other people level or she does raids. Why can't they just remove all of the leveling nonsense and focus more on the fun raiding and questing for cooler/showier items to wear? Everybody just grinds to level 70/80/whatever the highest level is, in order to play with the other players in quests and events that actually mean something.

Sorry if this turned into a rant about WoW, but I feel that it's relevant to the discussion. =p