Not everyone agrees that the endgame is the best or only real gameplay in WoW. Personally my favorite were the first 20 levels in each starting area, which actually had some race-specific and class-specific personality to the content, before the quests degenerate into being generic. I don't like raiding, so I quit once I had tried all the races and when my main neared level 60 and the game started getting really slow and grindy.

I certainly agree that the monsters in Wow are pretty much all the same. That also contributed a lot to my boredom with the game, since there is nothing to challenge you to figure out how to use your character in different ways.

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Original post by Si Hao How can it be an illusion when a higher level has better stats better equipment more areas to explore quest farm compared to a lower level player and as sunandshadow has pointed out the higher level player is more economically powerful too.

You raise a good point. Yes, you get the benefit of being able to access different areas the higher your level gets. I think this can be done without having your level affect combat though. I also think that it's not that great that players with higher levels should be obtaining more gold/whatever than newer players. The economy shouldn't be so intertwined with leveling. By doing that, you're basically dooming the economy to inflate because players will get higher levels making the low cost items lose any value. For example, when you first start out, simple newbie health items cost quite a bit. But later the newbie health items are a dime a dozen since you're raking in way more money. The problem there is that one could essentially buy hundreds of newbie health items for practically nothing and then give them away to new players for free. Making those items totally worthless all around.

Overall, I think the combat aspect of the game plays too big a role. Like I mentioned earlier, combat should be seen as something you have to do to survive... not a job to make more money and gain power. The worst part is that the combat in WoW is awful, and that's the central focus of the game.

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Original post by sunandshadow Not everyone agrees that the endgame is the best or only real gameplay in WoW. Personally my favorite were the first 20 levels in each starting area, which actually had some race-specific and class-specific personality to the content, before the quests degenerate into being generic. I don't like raiding, so I quit once I had tried all the races and when my main neared level 60 and the game started getting really slow and grindy. I certainly agree that the monsters in Wow are pretty much all the same. That also contributed a lot to my boredom with the game, since there is nothing to challenge you to figure out how to use your character in different ways.

Well I didn't say "everyone" I said "most". =p

I quit around level 60 too. I don't know why it took me so long to notice that it was just a big grind, but once I did, I lost all interest in playing.

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Original post by Konidias Yes, you get the benefit of being able to access different areas the higher your level gets. I think this can be done without having your level affect combat though. I also think that it's not that great that players with higher levels should be obtaining more gold/whatever than newer players. The economy shouldn't be so intertwined with leveling. By doing that, you're basically dooming the economy to inflate because players will get higher levels making the low cost items lose any value. For example, when you first start out, simple newbie health items cost quite a bit. But later the newbie health items are a dime a dozen since you're raking in way more money. The problem there is that one could essentially buy hundreds of newbie health items for practically nothing and then give them away to new players for free. Making those items totally worthless all around.

I agree with those two points - being able to make substantially more money at higher levels causes inflation and harms the economy, and players could unlock new areas through quests or achievements without leveling needing to be involved. I would add that the 'levelling' portion of WoW and other MMOs has the important function of making the player come to identify with the character and feel that they are building the character both through strategic choices of how to spend points and what gear to buy and also through playing a role in the game world by doing quests. So in a game with no levels, it would still make sense to give players plenty of quests and ways to earn the ability to modify their character, even if these modifications do not make the character fundamentally more powerful. That's why an MMO which was just WoW's endgame would be awful, it would just be Halo with Orcs and the players wouldn't have any personal investment in their characters or their accomplishments within the game world.

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Overall, I think the combat aspect of the game plays too big a role. Like I mentioned earlier, combat should be seen as something you have to do to survive... not a job to make more money and gain power. The worst part is that the combat in WoW is awful, and that's the central focus of the game.

This part I don't agree with. To me combat is and should be a job, it is basically a profession. As someone who likes crafting, I see drop-hunting as farming monsters, which is a perfectly good profession and maybe even more inherently exciting than farming vegtables or something.

Let's forget WoW for a minute and look at Neopets and Gaia Online. Both of these could be considered levelless MMOs in the sense that combat is not central to the game. While in a standard MMO you hear people say stuff like "I need to train" or "I've almost finished earning my level for the day" in Neopets and Gaia you instead hear people say "I have to go play minigames until I earn my 2,000 gold for the day toward buying item X." Or "I need to put in my daily time toward earning a monthly trophy." My point is that an MMO's major activity, being something players do to try to get to a goal whether game-assigned or personally-chosen, is just naturally going to fell like one's daily work within the game. Game developers should work with that and try to develop players' pride in their work and enjoyment of carrying it out, while trying to make players 'workplace' an environment that feels fair and not frustrating.

Sunandshadow's Levelless MMO Concept:

- When beginning the game, the player sees a trailer characterizing the game world and basic types of play goals. The player then gets to choose their avatar's Name, Gender and Race/Species. No Class or Profession is chosen because all professions are available to all characters and class is a flexible description based on the player's in-game actions. Beginner characters have limited appearance customization and boring clothes to mark their n00b status and motivate players to go out and earn customizations.

- Entering the game world, the player sees a brief introduction characterizing their chosen race/species, then immediately has access to the central PVP and minigame hub, starter monster-hunting area, marketplace, and forum, and is offered an optional entry-point to the game's branching inteactive plot. Players who are uninterested in plot can immediately begin PVPing or playing the basic set of minigames. (Additional minigames must be unlocked by completing plot segments.) So for players uninterested in plot they can go directly to halo or NeoPets style play. Each type of PvP activity and minigame has an optional tutorial explaining how to play it and what the rewards are. Trying to Enter the starter monster-hunting area for the first time will also trigger an NPC to offer an optional tutorial.

- Players who choose to immerse themselves in the plot get continued characterization of their race and the world, dialogue choices to start building their avatar's personality/role, and optional tutorial quests which introduce PvE, reward the player with a first opportunity to customize their appearance, and briefly introduce the fact that the game includes crafting, player properties, pets and mounts, faction alignments, and romanceable NPCs.

- Continuing through the plot unlocks additional hunting areas, leads the player through starting to craft, further customizing their appearance, choosing a faction to begin building a reputation with, creating their property, acquiring a pet, building friendly or romantic relationships with NPCs, acquiring a basic mount, etc.

- The roleplaying side of the game has several long-terms goals, and the player can choose which to pursue at any time. These goals include maxing out any of several faction or individual relationships, set-completion bonuses for crafting all of a group or sequence of items, titles, achievements, high scores, and simply earning a lot of money. Freeform private roleplay (age-varified players can rp in unmoderated private rooms) and in-game exchange of art and fiction should also be popular perpetual community activities.

Hmm I seem to have left out dungeons, they should be in there somewhere too. Anyway, comments? Would you enjoy playing this game? What would you prefer to see added or changed?

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Original post by sunandshadow Sunandshadow's Levelless MMO Concept: *snip*

As you have described it, it sounds like a fairly typical PvE game, with a PvP and minigame based 'n00b playground' tacked onto the starting area.

Some points need a little clarification, I think:

Is PvE only done to advance the story/roleplay? Or are PvP and minigame perks awarded for PvE progress? Are customisations also awarded for PvP and minigames?

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Original post by swiftcoder Quote: Original post by sunandshadow Sunandshadow's Levelless MMO Concept: *snip* As you have described it, it sounds like a fairly typical PvE game, with a PvP and minigame based 'n00b playground' tacked onto the starting area. Some points need a little clarification, I think: Is PvE only done to advance the story/roleplay? Or are PvP and minigame perks awarded for PvE progress? Are customizations also awarded for PvP and minigames?

I was intending the plot to have a much heavier emphasis on crafting and interactive story than a typical PvE MMO, and more separation of the various activities so basically everything is optional and people can do their favorite thing all day long if they want and completely avoid activities they aren't interested in.

I see the game's central area as more than a 'noob playground' since it should be a social center for long-time players as well, it's where you would meet up with your guild members to do group PvP or group dungeon instances. I don't want to insult non-plot players by thinking of them as noobs. But playground is a somewhat accurate term.

PvE directly rewards the player with crafting materials and titles; most of the plot-related quests which reward customizations, spells, and relationship points can be fulfilled either by PvE or by one or two alternate non-PvE paths for players who are pacifists or bored by combat.

I was thinking PvP would award money and 'crafting licenses', which PvP-only players would exchange on the marketplace for crafted customizations, pets, and mounts, most of which would be bind on equip and thus not resellable to other players. There would also be rare customizations awarded for weekly high pvp scores, extremely high minigame scores, and PvE- or crafting-related set completion bonuses or difficult achievements.

EDIT: Ooh and I totally forgot the role of puzzles in the plot side of the game *headdesk* For all this design though, I'm still not actually sure the game would be better than a version of the game that was the same except for having player levels and leveled equipment and PvE.

[Edited by - sunandshadow on July 2, 2009 5:18:25 PM]

Hey everybody, reading this post was interesting to me, enough to get me to register.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Star Wars Galaxies yet, even though sunandshadow's concept seems to fit how it used to be.

In its initial iteration there were no levels or classes; instead, the game used a system of Professions. There were 32 professions, with 6 starting ones, and 26 elite ones.

Each profession had four "paths" of four "skills". These skills either gave you stats, abilities, or item certifications, depending on what the path was about. In order to get a pistol skill, you needed pistol exp, obtained by using a pistol. http://www.swgalaxies.net/picture.php3?type=database&id=234

A complete build could be finished in about two months of casual play, much less if you chose to grind, so no such eternal grind existed. Weapons and armor could only be obtained from players who made them using the Weaponsmith and Armorsmith Professions.

Since everyone was equal in health and base stats, players diferentiated themselves from each other by their mixture of professions, their gear, but most importantly their ability to use their custom character they built.


The game was fair, as everyone had an equal opportunity to be good, since they didn't need to spend hours and hours getting the best gear. At the same time though, players who played more often, better knew how to use their character and which weapons and armor to team it with. The casual gamer could be just as successful as the hardcore grinder if the casual guy was proficient in his build.


I think the problem the OP is having, is that he is trying to apply the "stat less rpg" to an already existing rpg. There is no reason to include levels, as levels indicate a difference in power which isn't what the OP seems to want.

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Original post by Si Hao Another proof then, a level 20 paladin meets a level 10 paladin on the field and decided to attack him. If both paladins are controlled by players with comparable skills the level 20 paladin will always win out. Why? Because his weapon does more damage, he has more HP, he has more mana to cast his heals, he has more armor and can cast better spells a level 10 paladin can't. What you mentioned of monsters leveling up with a player is in fact a choice. A choice the level 20 paladin chooses, he chooses to fight monsters designed for a level 20 paladin instead of those designed for a level 10 paladin. Because this monsters provide better drops and experience gains compared to a lower level monster. This does not change the fact that a level 20 paladin did gain power with his leveling. In fact the level 20 paladin can go back to a level 10 area and farm lower level monsters with ease but the benefits are just not there for him to bother.

What you describe is the very illusion I am talking about.

Yes: A level 20 character has higher values in their stats than a level 10.

Yes: A level 20 in a fight will usually beat a level 10.

But: The game is not about high level characters running around and beating up low level characters (or monsters).

So, if this is not the gameplay as intended, then using this type of gameplay to support that the gameplay of the game means that a level 20 character is more powerful than a level 10 character is not a valid argument.

What I am saying is that if you use the gameplay of the game, then the experience of that level 20 character has no real difference to the level 10.

For example: A level 10 does 10 damage with each hit and monsters have 100 hit points. So 10 hits will kill the monster. But the level 20 does 30 damage each hit (so is in the numbers more powerful than the level 10) and the monsters have 300 hit points. But this still means that it take 10 hits to kill the monsters.

The level 20, in terms of gameplay, is no more powerful than the level 10 because it take just as long to kill the level 20 monsters as the level 10 took to kill the level 10 monsters.

So although the numbers and stats are greater for the level 20, this is just an illusion, as in both cases it took 10 hits to kill the monster. The monster was just as difficult to fight for both characters.

WoW does this. Neverwinter Nights (1 and 2) does this. In fact, pretty much every single RPG (including pen and paper ones) do this. They match the difficulty of an encounter (usually combat) to the power level of the character(s).

And it is not only RPGs either. Platform games, do this, strategy games do this (think about how they give you the units needed to complete the challenge of that level).

There is nothing wrong with this at all. It is a good thing. If the difficulty of a game was too high for at a given point for the player/characters to handle, then players would give up as the game would be nearly impossible. If the difficulty never kept up with the growing power of the player/character, then they would find it too easy and give up on it as not being a challenge.

Imagine these 2 scenarios:

In the fist level 1 character mission in WoW, you have to fight Onyxia. Would you continue to play the game after this? No. Why, because you can not beat Onyxia because she it too powerful for level 1 characters, they don't stand a chance.

Ok, now this one: The final end game boss of WoW is a level 1 Goblin. You know what, this would really give you a sense of power. You are a really high level and you should be able to walk the earth like a god. And this prove it, no monster can stand in your way. This would full fill your need for a sense of power and show that your character is really powerful.

But would you feel satisfied with that ending? No of course not. Why, it was not a challenge and so would not really give you a sense of power. You would fell ripped of.

But why, you said that the motivation is for a sense of increased power and that gives it to you on a platter.

But, for a level 1 character, those goblins are a challenge. But then so is Onyxia for the high level character. In fact, the difficulty for a 1st level character fighting the goblin is roughly the same difficulty for that high level character fighting Onyxia. But if the difficulty is the same, how then can one really state that the character is more powerful?

Like I said in my previous post: If you reduce the power level of monsters you ahve already fought, then this would give you the exact same effect as if you were increasing your stats, but because the player does not see the numbers representing their stats getting bigger, they don't feel that they are getting more powerful.

But, if the effect is the same, then why doesn't them player feel more powerful? Simply that the feeling of getting more powerful comes from seeing the numbers increase, not that the character is able to defeat the old monsters more easily.

If the feeling does not come from beating the snot out of the weak creatures, but instead comes from just seeing numbers increase in value, then what you ahve is the sense of power being only an illusion.

To understand this, you have to step outside of the game. You have to see the game as a designer would, not as a player. The player experiences the feeling of power, but that feeling is only there because the designer created it for them. The character doesn't get more powerful, only that the designer created the situation to give that feeling.

Here is another way of thinking about it:

Adam is in a spaceship travelling at 100km per hour. Bob is in another spaceship travelling at 110km per hour behind Adam. Bob hits Adam and they collide.

Clare is in space ship travelling at 1000km per hour. Debby is in another spaceship travelling at 10010km per hour behind Clare. Debby hits Clare and the collide.

Now, tell me: Who had the worst collision? Bob and Adam, or Clare and Debby?

Actually this is trick question. It does not matter how fast they are travelling, only how fast they are travelling compared to the spaceship they hit. Both hit the other space ship at 10km per hour. Both collisions were just as bad as each other.

Can you understand now? It doesn't matter if the monster you face has 10 hit point and you do 1 point of damage, or the monster had 1,000,000 and you do 100,000 damage in either case you kill the monster in 10 hits, just as it doesn't matter about the actual speed of the spaceships, only the speed compared to the one they hit.

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Original post by Larrius Hey everybody, reading this post was interesting to me, enough to get me to register. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Star Wars Galaxies yet, even though sunandshadow's concept seems to fit how it used to be. In its initial iteration there were no levels or classes; instead, the game used a system of Professions. There were 32 professions, with 6 starting ones, and 26 elite ones. Each profession had four "paths" of four "skills". These skills either gave you stats, abilities, or item certifications, depending on what the path was about. In order to get a pistol skill, you needed pistol exp, obtained by using a pistol. http://www.swgalaxies.net/picture.php3?type=database&id=234 A complete build could be finished in about two months of casual play, much less if you chose to grind, so no such eternal grind existed. Weapons and armor could only be obtained from players who made them using the Weaponsmith and Armorsmith Professions. Since everyone was equal in health and base stats, players diferentiated themselves from each other by their mixture of professions, their gear, but most importantly their ability to use their custom character they built. The game was fair, as everyone had an equal opportunity to be good, since they didn't need to spend hours and hours getting the best gear. At the same time though, players who played more often, better knew how to use their character and which weapons and armor to team it with. The casual gamer could be just as successful as the hardcore grinder if the casual guy was proficient in his build. I think the problem the OP is having, is that he is trying to apply the "stat less rpg" to an already existing rpg. There is no reason to include levels, as levels indicate a difference in power which isn't what the OP seems to want.

Alright, I'm quite curious - how fun was this game, how fast did people get bored, was there a community of people who adored the game and had played a really long time?

To answer your question, it was fun, people didn't get bored as it had much variety to fit every play style of game. People who picked up the game rarely put it down.

There were about 6 or so planets which each had areas for the player to explore, quests involved a lot of these areas, but mostly there to explore and there was something there to kill or to see.

It had a player economy that made sense, everything the player could hold and use (weapons, armor, food, landspeeders, player houses) were made by fellow players. Making good weapons, and armor was hard work, and very few people had the time to go out and look for the best resources to make good products and the patience to get good. This fueled competition and improved the quality of items available to the consumer over time.

Houses which held items and allowed players to personalize completely, were made by players with the Architect profession, along with the furnishings inside them. Players could band together houses to form small player towns. Creating a very social aspect of the game.

However, most people congregated in the static developer created cities, like Mos Eisley on Tatooine, and Theed on Naboo. People in these static cities did two things, wait for the shuttle at the starport to transport them to anywhere in the Galaxy (which only came every 15 minutes) or hangout in the bar-like Cantina, where players could make their own dances and music using a lot of base dances and songs with some personalization in them. These Entertainers buffed combat players. Imagine the first Star Wars movie where they are in the Mos Eisley Cantina when Kenobi cuts the dude's arm off. It's that type of atmosphere.

The PvE consisted killing the random mobs on the planet, certain areas had a type of bad guys, like a Tuskan Raider cave or a valley of big Lizard dragons. Also quests, both interesting and the "go here kill x of y, repeat" type.

PvP consisted of the two factions Imperials and Rebels, players could switch factions fairly easily. No PvP zones, but in order to be attackable, you had to switch to Overt status, had to talk to certain npcs. Otherwise you were covert and not attackable. Death caused items to decay, which eventually needed replaced.

Overall it was an excellent game that didn't rely on gimmicks or constantly comming out with new expansions and another 10 more levels to grind incessantly to. It had 32 professions which all had uses and all were interesting anyone could find one they liked.

The developers decided to change the game wihtout telling people, not once, but twice. The first time revamping the combat system to include levels, but keeping the profession system. The second update, which is the state the game is in now, removed the profession system making 32 professions into 9 unchangeable classes, included epic loot which in turn put all crafters out of buisness as the new loot was better than anything that could be made since the crafting system wasn't changed to fit with the new weapon stats.

The game now is now a battle of gear and buffs rather than skill, and is marked by player class fads when classes are given new abilities. In other words, the game turned to shit.