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Original post by Meh_Gerbil I'll wait on the sidelines while empty world I, II, & III fail. Maybe a couple of dozen more failures will cause developers to reconsider.

And do what? (After they "see the light," what is it you expect them to do?)

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Original post by vchile You may think that sucks, but that's life. That's what gamers have been saying for years. This isn't exclusive to gaming either. It's the same in many walks of life. It would be a pretty strange company that doesn't have making the most money possible, as it's number one objective. And companies that want to make the most money, aim for the mainstream audience.

While it sucks to be an unsatisfied customer, it doesn't hurt me as much as it hurts developers that don't listen. :D

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Original post by vchile That was someone else's thesis, but their point is that there is some value in games that use a well known intellectual property. Nobody said it "beats" anything or that one is more popular than the other. You said games like that are garbage and miss the point of MMORPG's, and someone gave you a reason why why they do have some value.

Fair enough.

I still wonder how valuable that intellectual property is when games based on these things don't do as well as games based on something entirely new. Star Wars is a HUGE intellectual property and yet the game based on it loses out to the unforutnately named EVE? I'm not seeing the payout there.

Since I'm a noob (with no reputation to worry about) I'll go out on a limb and predict the failure of Star Trek Online. Darkfall won't be far behind either. UO will out live both of these as well. :D

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Original post by Tom Sloper Quote: Original post by Meh_Gerbil I'll wait on the sidelines while empty world I, II, & III fail. Maybe a couple of dozen more failures will cause developers to reconsider. And do what? (After they "see the light," what is it you expect them to do?)

I expect them to sit down and build my next addiction. :D

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Original post by Meh_Gerbil Quote: Original post by kyoryu SWG housing wasn't far from the UO model, and (CU/NGE aside) didn't exactly do WoW numbers. I want to comment on this from a design perspective as well. Games based on Star Wars, or Star Trek, or LOTR are utter garbage and completely miss the point of a MMORPG. I don't want to log on and play someone else's story and respond to cheesy movie scripts. I want to log into a world that is a blank slate and make my own story - not stand around and argue about what a Jedi Knight would do in a given instance.

Did you ever actually PLAY SWG, especially pre-CU?

The only way it could have been more UO2 is if it said "UO2."

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Original post by Meh_Gerbil Quote: Original post by Tom Sloper Quote: Original post by Meh_Gerbil I'll wait on the sidelines while empty world I, II, & III fail. Maybe a couple of dozen more failures will cause developers to reconsider. And do what? (After they "see the light," what is it you expect them to do?) I expect them to sit down and build my next addiction. :D

After having three worlds fail? How could they still be in business after that?

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I still wonder how valuable that intellectual property is when games based on these things don't do as well as games based on something entirely new. Star Wars is a HUGE intellectual property and yet the game based on it loses out to the unforutnately named EVE? I'm not seeing the payout there.

Everything is a toss up. Take a look at some of the subscriber information Here. StarWarsGalaxies came out the same time as EVE. It had and absolutely massive lead over EVE at launch (~250K vs <100k ). The tie in to a known universe really helped to bolster their take. WoW and LOTR both show similar curves at launch. The IP is very valuable if used right. Games with good keeping power but lacking a recognizable IP are a hard sell(EVE). Games with a good name, but no power to keep customers have huge draw at the start, but quickly fade(LOTR). Games with good keeping power AND a recognizable draw pull in the most people(WoW).


The problem with SWG is they killed off the game as time went on. EVE, for all it's foibles, has slowly been perfecting its game play in much the same way WoW has. They both manage to keep from alienating their core players while still trying to add new parts to the world in the hopes of bringing in more players. SWG managed to make a tonne of gameplay changes that alienated their players.
As the games get even bigger, EVE and WoW have both begun to add more and more seperate segments into their worlds that encourage newcommers to be able to join in on what they consider "safe" gameplay, only having to step out of their comfortable corner of the game if they want to.

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Original post by Tom Sloper After having three worlds fail? How could they still be in business after that?

I was referring to the developer community as a whole.
I think game developers can learn from each other's successes and failures.

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Original post by KulSeran Everything is a toss up. Take a look at some of the subscriber information Here. StarWarsGalaxies came out the same time as EVE. It had and absolutely massive lead over EVE at launch (~250K vs <100k ). The tie in to a known universe really helped to bolster their take. WoW and LOTR both show similar curves at launch. The IP is very valuable if used right. Games with good keeping power but lacking a recognizable IP are a hard sell(EVE). Games with a good name, but no power to keep customers have huge draw at the start, but quickly fade(LOTR). Games with good keeping power AND a recognizable draw pull in the most people(WoW). The problem with SWG is they killed off the game as time went on. EVE, for all it's foibles, has slowly been perfecting its game play in much the same way WoW has. They both manage to keep from alienating their core players while still trying to add new parts to the world in the hopes of bringing in more players. SWG managed to make a tonne of gameplay changes that alienated their players. As the games get even bigger, EVE and WoW have both begun to add more and more seperate segments into their worlds that encourage newcommers to be able to join in on what they consider "safe" gameplay, only having to step out of their comfortable corner of the game if they want to.

Right.

The recognizable name is very good for stirring up initial hype; however, the entire point of a MMORPG is getting the players to make a long term commitment. Games that develop the long term commitment (such as EVE) eventually win out over games like SWG.

I really think there is much to be learned from EVE. A tiny launch allows for stability issues and game balance issues to be addressed with a minimal impact on a small customer base.

Compare with a multi-million dollar ad campaign and a million copies sold on day 1 - the resulting chaos and impact upon your first 1 million customers can be catastrophic. Long queue times, over crowded noob areas, and massive exploitation is gonna leave a permanent mark.

If I were to launch a game I wouldn't put up a website until 10 days before launch and I'd plan on 10-50 thousand users for the first year. I won't blow cash on advertising, I'd let word of mouth spread the news. A good game doesn't need to advertise. YouTube videos, game reviews at internet sites and so forth will do all of that for free.