I had something like that in mind.

For reference: Chinese room

Quote: Original post by Sneftel
Jesus H Christ. Molasses: Not conscious. People: Conscious! Hydrocarbons, both of them. The difference? What leads to consciousness?

I know this question wasn't directed to me, but the answer is: the soul is what leads to consciousness.
People as well as molasses are both completely unconscious when existing without the infusion or inhabitation of a soul.
The soul can be likened to the Consciousness-Boson.

Quote: Original post by polymorphed
The soul can be likened to the Consciousness-Boson.

Huh.. how do you know molasses doesn't have any?

Quote: Original post by Sneftel

Quote: Original post by polymorphed
The soul can be likened to the Consciousness-Boson.

Huh.. how do you know molasses doesn't have any?

Well, I never said it doesn't. The problem is that we don't really have any way of knowing because those Consciousness-Bosons in the molasses have no way of communicating to us. Even if a soul inhabits a jar of molasses, that soul is likely to be very primitive. All souls are not alike, some become incarnate as Jesus, and others incarnate into a tree (or a jar of molasses). Jesus might have started off as a jar of molasses. [smile]

Quote: Original post by polymorphed
Well, I never said it doesn't. The problem is that we don't really have any way of knowing because those Consciousness-Bosons in the molasses have no way of communicating to us.

Ah, but you've already thrown out "communication" as a means of proof of consciousness. So why do you demand it of the molasses?

Quote: Original post by Sneftel

Quote: Original post by polymorphed
Well, I never said it doesn't. The problem is that we don't really have any way of knowing because those Consciousness-Bosons in the molasses have no way of communicating to us.

Ah, but you've already thrown out "communication" as a means of proof of consciousness. So why do you demand it of the molasses

Whether molasses is conscious or not is impossible to determine unless you have some form of sixth sense which allows you communicate with the Consciousness-Bosons, if you will, directly. There are actually people who claim to have this sense, though, which allows them to communicate with rocks, for example. I'll admit that their sanity should probably be questioned.

But, in the odd chance of their sanity actually being intact, your original claim should then be modified to:

Quote: Molasses: Conscious. People: Conscious. Hydrocarbons, both of them. The difference? Level of development.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that consciousness does not necessarily have to exist in an "on/off" mode. You could say that someone who is more intelligent has a more developed consciousness than someone who is less intelligent.

Quote: Original post by polymorphed
Whether molasses is conscious or not is impossible to determine unless you have some form of sixth sense which allows you communicate with the Consciousness-Bosons, if you will, directly.

That doesn't really address my question. Given that something telling you "yes, I believe myself to be conscious" would not be sufficient for you to believe them to be conscious, why do you mention molasses' inability to tell you that to be evidence of its lack of consciousness?

Quote: Original post by Sneftel

Quote: Original post by polymorphed
Whether molasses is conscious or not is impossible to determine unless you have some form of sixth sense which allows you communicate with the Consciousness-Bosons, if you will, directly.

That doesn't really address my question. Given that something telling you "yes, I believe myself to be conscious" would not be sufficient for you to believe them to be conscious, why do you mention molasses' inability to tell you that to be evidence of its lack of consciousness?

When I said "we don't really have any way of knowing because those Consciousness-Bosons in the molasses have no way of communicating to us.", I was referring to "we" as in people who can't communicate in any other form than speech. I guess I should have phrased that a little differently.
Those who are able to communicate telepathically with these Consciousness-Bosons can then at least prove to themselves that a rock or a jar of molasses is conscious.

Quote: Original post by polymorphed

When I said "we don't really have any way of knowing because those Consciousness-Bosons in the molasses have no way of communicating to us.", I was referring to "we" as in people who can't communicate in any other form than speech. I guess I should have phrased that a little differently.

Still not there. Let's try again with some specifics. Suppose you were sitting at a computer sometime in the far future, conversing with a chatbot, built by the best scientific minds out there. Offhand, you asked the computer, "Do you believe yourself to be conscious?" And the computer replied, "Yes, I believe myself to be conscious". Would you then believe the computer to be conscious?

Quote: Original post by Sneftel
Still not there. Let's try again with some specifics. Suppose you were sitting at a computer sometime in the far future, conversing with a chatbot, built by the best scientific minds out there. Offhand, you asked the computer, "Do you believe yourself to be conscious?" And the computer replied, "Yes, I believe myself to be conscious". Would you then believe the computer to be conscious?

I see what you mean now. One can never know if another entity is conscious, because consciousness is a completely subjective experience. Unless you've read my thread, which actually answers that question. (Cliff note: All consciousness is one grand consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. In other words, no separation exists between consciousness A and B. This means that all experience is subjective to that grand consciousness.) I won't drag that discussion to this thread, though.