GCC versions:
4.0.1 is still latest for apple? ohh my god. It was released on July 7, 2005 . It might even fail to bootstrap 4.3.3 .
FYI, my cross development toolchain has gcc 4.3.3 from January 24, 2009 .

Seriously, you can only develop for mac using mainly-linux tools (GCC), and i'm pretty sure its easier to set up decent version of those on linux.

InterfaceBuilder: Does it still not support any sort of layout, and require you to manually position all buttons absolutely? Sounds like throwback indeed.

Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid
I was more referring to look-and-feel issues than the development tools under the hood.

If I'd be using gcc 4.0.1 , development would've indeed feelt like a port (working around compiler bugs, lack of recent features like OpenMP, and so on).

Quote:
Part of the reason why I started using Macs more was to get a better feel of the Mac way of doing things. There's a big difference in usability between a native Mac app and one that has been ported without consideration to the Mac GUI. For example, lately I've been comparing Komodo IDE with Wing IDE for use with Python. Komodo IDE has a very nice Mac OS feel, while Wing IDE feels like a port.

OS X got no autolayout, right? Manual positioning of controls sucks; everything feels like a port unless you put a lot of effort into positioning things just same as "standard".

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Of course, this matters less for games, which tend to be all unique. [smile] I guess it matters for the installation.

Isn't it the genuine mac way to just unpack archive and use bundle with no installer, and mostly ported apps use installer? Or did attitudes change a lot lately?

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In general for my development strategy, I don't want my Mac version of my games to feel like the afterthought port, not when they're likely to be my prime market. Consequently developing on a Mac helps cement that. I'll have to see how well that goes for development greater than my little hobby games, of course. [wink]

Well. All the variability in look of my game comes hundred percent from difference between ATI and NVidia drivers and hardware.
(did you try to play it on mac and pc btw?)
You can make far better case that my "ATI support" is an afterthought than my mac support.

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As for the "good deal" comment, Talroth is right.

Did you even read his point?

Yep. I don't think a department will care that much about the price of RAM for a Mac Pro, not when factored into all the other costs (time and money) they have to deal with.

His point was that department would buy mac because it is a good deal, not because it doesn't care if it gets a good or bad deal.

Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid
I was more referring to look-and-feel issues than the development tools under the hood. Part of the reason why I started using Macs more was to get a better feel of the Mac way of doing things. There's a big difference in usability between a native Mac app and one that has been ported without consideration to the Mac GUI.

Imagine my surprise when I first ran the mono app I was porting from windows to the mac. To say it wasn't pretty is a huge understatement.

Quote: Original post by Dmytry
GCC versions:
4.0.1 is still latest for apple? ohh my god. It was released on July 7, 2005 . It might even fail to bootstrap 4.3.3 .
FYI, my cross development toolchain has gcc 4.3.3 from January 24, 2009 .

Yep. [grin] Just FYI that's the latest version I've got too.

Honestly, I'd give Linux more attention if it had some friendlier artist tools apart from Inkscape. And if I could of got the damn thing to run on my PC. [rolleyes] Still, I've been meaning to covert an old computer I've got to a legacy Windows 98/Linux machine, so I'll give it another go. I'd like something running Debian so I can test a server locally before going live.

Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid
And if I could of got the damn thing to run on my PC. [rolleyes]

I don't know how you have so many problems. Modern linux distros tend to work just fine on a wide variety of hardware. The only linux distro I've ever had problems getting it to work was Gentoo, and I think you're expected to have problems with Gentoo. [wink]

Quote: Original post by tstrimp

Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid
I was more referring to look-and-feel issues than the development tools under the hood. Part of the reason why I started using Macs more was to get a better feel of the Mac way of doing things. There's a big difference in usability between a native Mac app and one that has been ported without consideration to the Mac GUI.

Imagine my surprise when I first ran the mono app I was porting from windows to the mac. To say it wasn't pretty is a huge understatement.

Same with wxWidgets app, which did look pretty on both windows and linux naturally without any fiddling. Later on i ended up spending more time tweaking any new dialog on mac than on linux and windows combined.

Quote: Original post by tstrimp

Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid
And if I could of got the damn thing to run on my PC. [rolleyes]

I don't know how you have so many problems. Modern linux distros tend to work just fine on a wide variety of hardware. The only linux distro I've ever had problems getting it to work was Gentoo, and I think you're expected to have problems with Gentoo. [wink]

I had problem booting Linux on old pc, caused, most surprisingly, by degrading capacitors on motherboard. No shit. Combined with Linux's more aggressive power saving strategies, that resulted in larger voltage fluctuations.

Quote: Original post by Dmytry
Isn't it the genuine mac way to just unpack archive and use bundle with no installer, and mostly ported apps use installer? Or did attitudes change a lot lately?

Quite often, yes [grin]. That's the method I'd use for a hobby game. However for installation, now that EULAs are all the rage these days, many apps now have a proper installer with a click through agreement.

I was somewhat fishing for differences in game GUIs. It might matter a bit in windowed mode, but frankly I don't care that much about a non-native use of the menu bar for games. If you use or develop a good cross-platform library set then it should work seamlessly across platforms.

Quote: Well. All the variability in look of my game comes hundred percent from difference between ATI and NVidia drivers and hardware.
(did you try to play it on mac and pc btw?)
You can make far better case that my "ATI support" is an afterthought than my mac support.

I play my games (well, game demos for the last year or two [rolleyes]) on both my Mac and my PC during development. Unfortunately, both have Radeon cards so it's not much of a compatibility test. Fortunately, I stick to using 3D quads only to display 2D sprites, so it's not as if I'm pushing the limits. [grin]

Quote: Original post by tstrimp
Imagine my surprise when I first ran the mono app I was porting from windows to the mac. To say it wasn't pretty is a huge understatement.

I've been looking at a lot of software lately with an eye to buy, and the lack of care in the Mac port has been a deal breaker on more than one occasion. I don't care how many features are crammed into Wing IDE or how premier Finale's musical notation software is; if the GUI irritates me (in Wing IDE) or there's graphical glitches (in Finale) then I'm not going to buy your product.

Quote: Original post by tstrimp
I don't know how you have so many problems. Modern linux distros tend to work just fine on a wide variety of hardware. The only linux distro I've ever had problems getting it to work was Gentoo, and I think you're expected to have problems with Gentoo. [wink]

There's something in that computer that Linux just does not like. I don't know if there's something bizarre with the hardware, or there's a faulty part in there somehwere, but it just hangs somewhere along the line. Different distros get to different points, but the end result is always a total computer freeze. It's weird.

That computer was ordered at speed when I blew up its predecesor's motherboard on a Jan. 2 (not this one) when I was in Canberra. I found out that virtually everyone in town was on holiday until next week, including all the computer retail outlets. My PC was not only vital for work, but my prime entertainment service for both games and playing DVDs, so I needed a replacement ASAP to stay sane. The local store at my uni was thankfully open so I arranged a fairly cheap but nice replacement to tide me over for a year, but it worked well (for Windows XP at least) and I've never seen the need to replace it.

Umm, were we talking about Macs for ApochPiQ somewhere here? [grin]

Quote: Original post by Trapper Zoid

Quote: Original post by Dmytry
Isn't it the genuine mac way to just unpack archive and use bundle with no installer, and mostly ported apps use installer? Or did attitudes change a lot lately?

Quite often, yes [grin]. That's the method I'd use for a hobby game. However for installation, now that EULAs are all the rage these days, many apps now have a proper installer with a click through agreement.

You can write config inside bundle... and remember that user did click through EULA :-)

Quote:

I was somewhat fishing for differences in game GUIs. It might matter a bit in windowed mode, but frankly I don't care that much about a non-native use of the menu bar for games. If you use or develop a good cross-platform library set then it should work seamlessly across platforms.

Well, I have my own UI library, it is fairy decent. The only current deficiency on mac is lack of clipboard integration, but I don't need it in a game anyway.

Quote:

Quote: Well. All the variability in look of my game comes hundred percent from difference between ATI and NVidia drivers and hardware.
(did you try to play it on mac and pc btw?)
You can make far better case that my "ATI support" is an afterthought than my mac support.

I play my games (well, game demos for the last year or two [rolleyes]) on both my Mac and my PC during development. Unfortunately, both have Radeon cards so it's not much of a compatibility test. Fortunately, I stick to using 3D quads only to display 2D sprites, so it's not as if I'm pushing the limits. [grin]

Quote: Original post by tstrimp
Imagine my surprise when I first ran the mono app I was porting from windows to the mac. To say it wasn't pretty is a huge understatement.

I've been looking at a lot of software lately with an eye to buy, and the lack of care in the Mac port has been a deal breaker on more than one occasion. I don't care how many features are crammed into Wing IDE or how premier Finale's musical notation software is; if the GUI irritates me (in Wing IDE) or there's graphical glitches (in Finale) then I'm not going to buy your product.

For same reason, I would never buy OS X if not that I need it for testing.
I hate how font rendering looks on OS X (i consider lack of option for hinting a glitch), and I hate OS X mouse (i consider lack of any configuration for accel curve a glitch). I don't like defaults on other OSes either, but those are configurable from GUI (and on OS X not configurable *AT ALL*. Not even if you find driver sources, deduce meaning of parameters from it, and edit un-documented driver config file. SteerMouse failed for me by the way.).