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Here's where I start saying, I told you so

Started by February 27, 2009 12:54 PM
118 comments, last by LessBread 15 years, 8 months ago
Quote: Original post by Yann L
Stop smoking. Problem solved.


I guess I need to reiterate.

If said people do quit smoking, it's gonna hit the southern tobacco states hard (millions of jobs). Not to mention how this will affect small independent retailers and wholesalers.

p.s. - I don't smoke either, so I'm not trying to defend the cause of smoking. raising taxes to this degree is an indirect way of banning cigarettes for those who cannot afford it, and i don't believe any substance should be banned (much less the substance that is addictive on such a large scale)
Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
If said people do quit smoking, it's gonna hit the southern tobacco states hard (millions of jobs). Not to mention how this will affect small independent retailers and wholesalers.


To quote you:
Quote:
You tell me where the moral obligation is between the guy who takes cigarette breaks between shifts at a restaurant, and the healthcare for someone else's child.


So, you tell me where the moral obligation of a smoker towards the tobacco states is ? To pay them so they can keep slowly killing him ? I prefer that addicts pay money for child healthcare than to the tobacco industry.
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Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
Quote: Original post by Yann L
Stop smoking. Problem solved.

p.s. - I don't smoke either, so I'm not trying to defend the cause of smoking. raising taxes to this degree is an indirect way of banning cigarettes for those who cannot afford it, and i don't believe any substance should be banned (much less the substance that is addictive on such a large scale)
That's the crux of the problem. Many people do think smoking should be banned. Actually from what I've gathered a lot of people would rather have Marijuana legalized and smoking banned. :/ I for one support raising taxes. (My grandma has had cancer twice due to smoking in her life and my mom is probably going to run into the same problems :( )

Also it's not a tax against the middle or lower class. It's a tax against the stupid.
Smoking is stupid. But it is a harsh reality that losing jobs in the tobacco industry will be EXTREMELY detrimental to the state of the economy.
Quote: If said people do quit smoking, it's gonna hit the southern tobacco states hard (millions of jobs). Not to mention how this will affect small independent retailers and wholesalers.

True, and some people still may lose jobs. But you're assuming that the Tobacco industry only serves the U.S. which is not true. They export to other countries, most of which do not have taxes on tobacco. Secondly, there is this concept known as "secondary cost" which basically means the government uses tax money to fix up the problems generated by an industry running. If you get rid of the industry, you get rid of the secondary cost, which in turn saves the government money. You will never see this secondary cost because it is factored into all prices.

I see what your trying to say, but it's not true. That's like saying bringing hone the troops from Iraq will contract the economy because now people are not being paid, the government is not buying military gear, etc. But what you don't know is that if one industry goes down, two others will spawn in it's place. Some of the people that are laid off will find jobs elsewhere, or better yet, start their own business. There will be some mild hardships along the way but in the long run, the economy will recover and those workers will have jobs.


Quote: I don't smoke either, so I'm not trying to defend the cause of smoking. raising taxes to this degree is an indirect way of banning cigarettes for those who cannot afford it, and i don't believe any substance should be banned (much less the substance that is addictive on such a large scale)

You don't believe in banned substances? How about Cocaine? How does banning == taxation?
------------Anything prior to 9am should be illegal.
Yea, I don't believe any drug should be illegal. I think it increases crime and street violence. Awareness, not regulation. But that is too debatable a topic to switch to.

You make a good point, as healthcare costs would likely lower if the amount of smokers decreased. And I would love to see less people smoke.

I'm not saying everything is wrong with this bill being passed, just enough things that I think it is a bad decision.

"How does banning == taxation?"

In this certain circumstance, taxation at this high of a level will not allow a lot of smokers to be able to afford to smoke at the current rate. Not necessarily a full on ban, just an implied one for some individuals.


Another point to consider, is this. If taxes go up, consumption will go down. Does anyone think that this tax will be counter intuitive? Consumption goes down, than revenue goes down.
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Quote: Original post by RealMarkP
Quote: Tobacco is also a good item to tax because it's strictly a luxury item. You don't need to smoke, so if you can't afford it, stop. You will suffer from withdrawal, but that's a hole you dug for yourself and it won't kill you.

Alcohol is another such drug that is taxed (quite heavily in Canada). And if some politicians have their way, Marijuana will also be legalized and taxed. Food, since it is required for life, is not taxed because it is not a luxury.

Speaking as a non-smoker, I'm all for cigarette taxes being raised dramatically. Speaking as a non-drinker, I'm all for alcohol getting taxed heavily. Both cause major problems in society (alcohol more than cigarettes), so it's good public policy to nudge the public away from using them.

But realistically, the short-term effect is going to be a lot of lower-middle-class people smoking the money they should be buying their kids food with. The idea is that they'll figure that out and stop, but I don't know if I have that much faith in Joe Public.

Basically, it's probably socially neutral. But if it helps even a little bit to deal with the federal government's projected $1,750,000,000,000 deficit for FY 2009 then I'm all for it.
Quote: Basically, it's probably socially neutral. But if it helps even a little bit to deal with the federal government's projected $1,750,000,000,000 deficit for FY 2009 then I'm all for it.


Damn, that's a lot of zeroes.
------------Anything prior to 9am should be illegal.
We should also tax video games, which are an unproductive waste of time that stunts the intellectual development of children. The collapse of the primary education system in countries like the United States strongly correlates with video games. Now, more than ever, we need an intelligent, competitive work force.

Money earned on video game taxes could be used to fund a generation of piano and violin enthusiasts with superior cognitive abilities to the average mentally deficient American raised on a corrosive diet of Playstation and Hollywood films.
----Bart
Quote: Original post by trzy
video games, which are an unproductive waste of time that stunts the intellectual development of children.


What the HELL are you smoking? If anything, interactive media has been shown to Increase intellectual development in children. They're not perfect, and have other issues, but don't say games make people stupid or something, because it has been shown that playing games can greatly build problem solving ability.
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

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