Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds


There is hardly any doubt in my mind that America will see the fault in electing obama over the next 6 months. And when that day comes, I believe I will be the one saying "told you so".

That's really what this is about though isn't it? It wasn't to start a debate. It was jumping at the very tiniest shred of a scrap of something, to try and say HAH! Boy guys, you sure were dumb to vote for that looser! Yeah buddy! I was right I was right I was right. Yup....so smart the guy that is me. You got in too big a hurry. You could have waited for something of actual substance but you impulsively jumped at something little and are trying to make it into something huge.

"I told you so" requires a mistake so damning that its beyond question for anyone as to the cause. This ain't it. Furthermore that already happened and people decided to try something different for awhile. Furthermore still, the very same people that 3 years ago would have said you need to support your President no mater what are now hoping for failure just so they can say they are right. A horrific virtue you seem to mirror even if you wouldn't outright say so. Even furthermore the only other options here are to keep doing what has been done and isn't working. That's textbook insanity. Trying to do many, many new things will yield mixed results. That doesn't mean its the wrong thing to do nor does that mean the other plan would have worked any better. It most certainly doesn't earn I told you so.

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.............that as I'm 20 years old...............

Ahhhhh.

Look if you were ever wondering why people like LessBread can go around and be confident and forceful in their opinions yet when you try it you get hopped on like an all you can eat buffet in an impoverished country, it's not that you are a Republican in a Democrat's world. Nor because you are some kind of victim of other people's ignorance. It's that your arrogance precedes you and you use only your own opinion to support your claims.

LessBread for example is obviously well read and backs up his thoughts with data where as you claim victory by right of your own vanity. I am also confident that given enough evidence LessBread could be persuaded to chance his opinion on any matter. Where with you I think no mountain of evidence would ever persuade you deny your own ego. In the end all your post turn out to be ridiculous endeavors because they are never about what you say they are. They are all about trying to get everyone else to understand how awesome you are. It's silly but I play because I find you twistedly entertaining for some reason.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
That is a good point. But it still doesn't justify taxing the industry. Sure people's money might make it back around to the economy, but the planned tax hikes on big business coupled with new federal taxes on the industry spell out layoffs. And this is all part of early term stimulus?

By itself it does not justify the tax, no. Putting the taxed money into healthcare (which, from what I understand, is in terrible need of more money) is the justification.

I don't normally get into U.S. politics (because it doesn't really concern me), but from reading the original article you pointed to, it says a 20% increase in the price of cigarettes equates to a 6% drop in consumption. Now, this is much less than a 20% increase (in the overall price of cigarettes, that is) so you'd expect less than 6% drop - hardly the end of the industry.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
From election day until now, the DOW has dropped nearly 3000 points, with the steepest drop occuring just this past month.

There is hardly any doubt in my mind that America will see the fault in electing obama over the next 6 months. And when that day comes, I believe I will be the one saying "told you so".

You're a god damn idiot. The market's been sliding since 2007 and you honestly think that a month of Obama being in office caused it to keep dropping?


The market has been overvalued. All the imaginary funny money that Greenspan "created" is gone now. The only reason the market looked so high was because of the illusion that there was a lot more wealth out there than there actually was. THAT, AND the fact that investors are panicky retards. 6 months ago when Bush was still in office, it was revealed that AIG had insured more loans than the entire company was worth 3 times over. It's been completely obvious to anyone with a brain that AIG is going to be bleeding money for a very long long time. Yet they announce the completely obvious this week, that they've lost $62bn, and retarded investors everywhere freak out like this is some kind of surprise, and the market tanks.

Yeah, blame it on Obama. Not the god damn retarded "let's get rid of regulation!" policies of the Bush administration that caused this mess. Yeah. Ok.

Goober, I've clearly been tagged the "arrogant, selfish, close-minded republican" here, and I believe it is that tag that precedes me more so than anything I have said.

My concern is certainly not based around preserving my image in a community of game developers, it's to find out how there is such a divide in opinions between intelligent people.

I come to these forums because I am guaranteed to receive logical arguments from extremely logical people (programmers). While some of my opinions may seem void of supporting material, I find it hard to believe that they are so far-fetched that they hold no credit whatsoever (as most of you like to point out).

Perhaps I was a little too forward with the title of this thread, but it's from my experience that emotions usually bring out the best arguments.

And just because I don't divulge points that I may have changed my mind on doesn't mean I'm not. My posts present new angles and issues and questions that I have, and I present them in an argumentative manner. Sure it makes it look like I'm not considering others opinions, but the point is to spark discussion, not feed candy to those who may or may not have swayed my opinion.

But back on topic.. My opinion on this topic has swayed quite a bit (i guess i should make this more clear). Points were brought to mind that give the bill a lot more credibility than it held initially.

Quote: Yeah, blame it on Obama. Not the god damn retarded "let's get rid of regulation!" policies of the Bush administration that caused this mess. Yeah. Ok.

You tell me what gives investors confidence with proposals of increased marginal tax on successful business, capitol, dividend and even private funds?

p.s. - calm down, i know you're smarter than me but using curse words doesn't necessarily indicate that

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
Perhaps I was a little too forward with the title of this thread, but it's from my experience that emotions usually bring out the best arguments.

That's pretty much a bad habit, and you'd do well to guard against this in the future. Basing a debate in emotion generally brings about ranting, strawmen, and an unwillingness to accept or consider opposing ideas.

Now if you are stuck in your ways, well good for you, almost everyone is. It's just that their ways are different-- and that's my answer to your proposed conundrum about logical people with different ideas.

Quote: But back on topic.. My opinion on this topic has swayed quite a bit (i guess i should make this more clear). Points were brought to mind that give the bill a lot more credibility than it held initially.

Well alright then. [smile]

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Quote: Original post by Yann L
Stop smoking. Problem solved.

I guess I need to reiterate.

If said people do quit smoking, it's gonna hit the southern tobacco states hard (millions of jobs). Not to mention how this will affect small independent retailers and wholesalers.

I'm finding it a little difficult to muster any sympathy for an industry built around making a product whose sole purpose is to kill people.

Yes, they should tax guns instead.

What a great idea, actually.

I think they should raise ammo prices and tax the hell out of them. Imagine if a bullet cost $20 (street price), a full clip on a glock 21 or Beretta 92-F with 1 chambered would cost $360.

Quote: Original post by Chris Reynolds
Blah blah blah

Ah, so all this isn't actually about tobacco taxes. It's about Obama bashing. How cheap. If you have nothing better to put up against that guy, you must be really desperate.

Quote: Original post by Tha_HoodRat
I think they should raise ammo prices and tax the hell out of them. Imagine if a bullet cost $20 (street price), a full clip on a glock 21 or Beretta 92-F with 1 chambered would cost $360.

They do tax guns and ammo quite heavily over here. Then again, I don't know if the high prices are actually do to the tax, or if the manufacturers / retailers just make a ton of money on them, because they know the market is highly controlled. I mean, it's not as if I could just order a cheap one online in the US. Manually importing works, but needs so much paperwork that most people don't bother (and I'm pretty sure you have to post-pay the taxes anyway). Everytime I'm in the US on some shooting range (stress relief after business meetings ;) I'm shocked how fucking cheap ammo is.

Next we should tax air. 'Cause, you know, it's altering our environment.
Why doesn't the government ever choose better things to debate / talk about?
Like the economy going down the drain perhaps? Nah. Let's give 'em hell. Just tax everything. Money, Money, money, money.... That's where it's all at.

Quote: Original post by PCN
Next we should tax air. 'Cause, you know, it's altering our environment.

I hope the next Obama steep after tax air will be joining to Kioto agreement,at last? [smile]
They say, that global warming and changing of sea level affects megavolcano activity...