I didn''t read everything, but I would like to point you to Grandia2 (Dreamcast), which is IMO the best Adventure game (or RPG for some of you, but I completely disagree on that naming) ever.
The combat system include breaking attacks, blocking, moving...
It''s really interesting, and the best is to play the game to fully understand it.
I read the game manual before playing Grandia2, but I didn''t ''tasted'' the system, it was only in battle that I understood how strategic and cool the system really is.
-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-
ANTI - weapons.
quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
a) Pure defense (not getting hit, parrying) only prolongs the combat. That is, if one player does the ''pure defense move'' and is successful on turn N, then the state at turn N+1 matches the state at turn N.
This might not be a good design.
Hmmm... let us think about this for a moment. You are right, in a one on one combat, pure defense (which actually doesn''t exsists) can only extend the length of the combat, while leaving the final result unchanged, BUT... 1 on 1 combat is very rare i think, so defense has the following goals:
- keep you alive, until reinforcements arrive
- keep you alive, until you find out what to do next
- keep you alive, until you opponent makes a mistake, and you can strike/shoot back.
Summarized: its primary goal is to KEEP YOU ALIVE: it can help a lot even in a one on one combat situation.
What did my sentence "pure defense (which actually doesn''t exsists)" mean? Simply take a look at the defense from Mortal Kombat. You can never have 100% defense, even if your technique allows that, you are not perfect to use it perfectly. If so, then defense cannot extend the time a combat takes to an infinite time, but instead it gives you some extra time to think about your next step/counter enemy actions.
Summarized:
Pure defense in my point of view is actually a good alternative in a combat, if you are waiting for an event to occur, or even if you have no better option at that moment.
I think that to enlarge the defensive aspects of games, these defensive tactics would need to incorporate some aggressive elements (even if that is only the negation of the attack)?
How can we make a shield more than just a shield?
How can we make a shield more than just a shield?
Hi Ketchaval!
Not sure if this is on topic, but your question
reminded me of one of the artifact concepts I was developing some time ago. There was said that:
“Weapon or armor is every piece of equipment that has Durability, Attack and Defense modifiers. Thus it’s usual to have attack bonuses and the sword to have defensive. I guess you were talking figuratively, but that is a way to make the shield more than what just it is.
That was already discussed and I think that’s exactly what we need: martial arts experience. Redirecting the attack back to the attacker. Using pushes, pulls and throws discourage or damage the enemy. Aggression comes back to you. The major issue here is that those are unarmed combat rules. So “farewell to the arms”, huh? Just ranting…
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
Not sure if this is on topic, but your question
quote: How can we make a shield more than just a shield?
reminded me of one of the artifact concepts I was developing some time ago. There was said that:
“Weapon or armor is every piece of equipment that has Durability, Attack and Defense modifiers. Thus it’s usual to have attack bonuses and the sword to have defensive. I guess you were talking figuratively, but that is a way to make the shield more than what just it is.
That was already discussed and I think that’s exactly what we need: martial arts experience. Redirecting the attack back to the attacker. Using pushes, pulls and throws discourage or damage the enemy. Aggression comes back to you. The major issue here is that those are unarmed combat rules. So “farewell to the arms”, huh? Just ranting…
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
Boby Dimitrovhttp://forums.rpgbg.netBulgarian RPG Community
quote: Original post by BobyDimitrov
every piece of equipment that has Durability, Attack and Defense modifiers. Thus it’s usual to have attack bonuses and the sword to have defensive. I guess you were talking figuratively, but that is a way to make the shield more than what just it is.
Well using weapons as dual purpose attack and defense weapons is a way to make a sword more than a sword .
The question was how can we make defencive equipment have the same types of properties as attacking weapons. (advantages / disadvantages)
- Ie. speed - attack type - advantage vs. different type of enemies - weaknesses etc.
Thus for example in "a game"
- The arrow would be good for targetting at long distance, but have slow reload times, and not do as much damage as fighting with the sword, arrows would be good for targetting weakspots.
-The sword, is good for melee fighting, does more damage than arrows, is faster to use, is good versus opponents on foot, but not as good vs cavalry, is not as effective versus opponents in armour.
So there are times when it would be better to use the arrow, and times when it would be better to use the sword.
June 07, 2001 07:03 AM
The ultimate victory is to die. Anyways you just need to make the stupid creature that just killed you understand that it lost everything by killing you.
Hmm, maybe my knowledge is limited, but how many types of defensive equipment you know? 5? 10? What I’m trying to say is we will probably first need to invent the equipment itself, then try to balance it with the attacking equipment.
Another way to do this is just develop as much defensive tactics/moves for/with the weapons as the attacking ones. That way it’s gonna get real, because you use wear your weapon (sword, gun, laser) primary for self defense, is that right? So you will finally get a chance to use the weapon on purpose: defense.
Some of my cents ...
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
Another way to do this is just develop as much defensive tactics/moves for/with the weapons as the attacking ones. That way it’s gonna get real, because you use wear your weapon (sword, gun, laser) primary for self defense, is that right? So you will finally get a chance to use the weapon on purpose: defense.
Some of my cents ...
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
Boby Dimitrovhttp://forums.rpgbg.netBulgarian RPG Community
hmm.... what I meant was not quite a form of defensive combat, but actual, cowardly and honorless running away.
Bobby D:
your system sounds interesting, but from what i can tell its going to take a hell of a long time to play out a battle.... is there some way around this? maybe set certain parameters and automate some of it? (me personally, i like it, but if you plan on selling this one you have to make it more simple).
Ok, here are a few of my ideas (random) on defense:
"Never parry without attacking, never attack without anticipating to parry" - from something like <Über die Fechtkunst> 14th century
I do some fencing myself, and basically thats the way it goes. If you attack first, you have the advantage of being the one who sets the course of the next moves, you may also have the element of surprise. You can force your opponent into performing certain actions, which gives you an advantage in terms of predictability.
If you wait for the enemy to attack, you have the possibility of seeing his intended move, and acting before he strikes (there is no better time to attack than when the enemy advances). If you do not strike first, you parry, and thereby have your enemy in a predictable position which enables you to carry out the next attack.
So, who wins? Usually the one who is able to predict the opponents movements better (high skill), or simply the faster, more flexible one, who can use a mistake of the opponent to his own advantage.
I think if you seriously think about doing a "proper" combat system, you ought to try the weapons yourself. Get a few wooden models (swords, sticks, whatever), try to get the weight right (a bastard sword weighs about 2.5 kg), wrap some coushioning material around and try a few moves. If you go about it in a systematic way, you´ll soon have all the key moves there are to swordplay (low, mid, high, overhead attack, left/right, high, low overhead parry).
Or check out the HCA (historical combat association), for inspiriations on weapons check www.kkart.cz (my favourite arms manufacturer )
Shields are a bit problematic, because (speaking of the medieval ones) they were originally designed against projectiles or lances. A tower shield is much to big to be effective in close combat.
What they used instead were bucklers, like a shield, worn with the off-hand (strapped around the hand or wrist so you could still grab something with that hand), about 30cm diameter max. It´s primary use was to protect the hands when parrying with a one-and-a-half handed, or two-handed sword. the actual parrying was always done with the sword.
And, when fighting with swords, there is usually only one kind of defensive move, namely that which stops the enemy sword from making contact with your body (usually there´s only one way).
Actually, when heavy armor became popular (and larger shields), the two opponents would bash at each other (each others shields) until one of the shields gave out, or one of the opponents dropped from exhaustion (ever wear a 40kgs plate armor on a nice, warm june afternoon?). As soon as one was down, the other would stab him (cause you can´t slash or hack through a chainmail armor). Or just leave him there to die of exposure (once a knight was off his horse, the show was pretty much over anyway, cause he couldn´t get up. the heat would finish him off pretty soon anyway).
ever think about going less medieval and more renaissance? Cloak and rapier come to mind.... the cloak was actually used for parrying, entangling the enemies blade, distraction or entangling the enemy as a whole (throw the cloak over him, if he cant get out of the way stab him repeatedly until dead). With rapiers there would be a lot of fun combat possibilites... slashing, stabbing... for details on moves and so on just check out a fencing handbook.
And when you´re not hindered by armor, you can also evade. Otherwise you´re forced to parry (which has its advantages, as you stay within striking distance of the enemy).
Bobby D:
your system sounds interesting, but from what i can tell its going to take a hell of a long time to play out a battle.... is there some way around this? maybe set certain parameters and automate some of it? (me personally, i like it, but if you plan on selling this one you have to make it more simple).
Ok, here are a few of my ideas (random) on defense:
"Never parry without attacking, never attack without anticipating to parry" - from something like <Über die Fechtkunst> 14th century
I do some fencing myself, and basically thats the way it goes. If you attack first, you have the advantage of being the one who sets the course of the next moves, you may also have the element of surprise. You can force your opponent into performing certain actions, which gives you an advantage in terms of predictability.
If you wait for the enemy to attack, you have the possibility of seeing his intended move, and acting before he strikes (there is no better time to attack than when the enemy advances). If you do not strike first, you parry, and thereby have your enemy in a predictable position which enables you to carry out the next attack.
So, who wins? Usually the one who is able to predict the opponents movements better (high skill), or simply the faster, more flexible one, who can use a mistake of the opponent to his own advantage.
I think if you seriously think about doing a "proper" combat system, you ought to try the weapons yourself. Get a few wooden models (swords, sticks, whatever), try to get the weight right (a bastard sword weighs about 2.5 kg), wrap some coushioning material around and try a few moves. If you go about it in a systematic way, you´ll soon have all the key moves there are to swordplay (low, mid, high, overhead attack, left/right, high, low overhead parry).
Or check out the HCA (historical combat association), for inspiriations on weapons check www.kkart.cz (my favourite arms manufacturer )
Shields are a bit problematic, because (speaking of the medieval ones) they were originally designed against projectiles or lances. A tower shield is much to big to be effective in close combat.
What they used instead were bucklers, like a shield, worn with the off-hand (strapped around the hand or wrist so you could still grab something with that hand), about 30cm diameter max. It´s primary use was to protect the hands when parrying with a one-and-a-half handed, or two-handed sword. the actual parrying was always done with the sword.
And, when fighting with swords, there is usually only one kind of defensive move, namely that which stops the enemy sword from making contact with your body (usually there´s only one way).
Actually, when heavy armor became popular (and larger shields), the two opponents would bash at each other (each others shields) until one of the shields gave out, or one of the opponents dropped from exhaustion (ever wear a 40kgs plate armor on a nice, warm june afternoon?). As soon as one was down, the other would stab him (cause you can´t slash or hack through a chainmail armor). Or just leave him there to die of exposure (once a knight was off his horse, the show was pretty much over anyway, cause he couldn´t get up. the heat would finish him off pretty soon anyway).
ever think about going less medieval and more renaissance? Cloak and rapier come to mind.... the cloak was actually used for parrying, entangling the enemies blade, distraction or entangling the enemy as a whole (throw the cloak over him, if he cant get out of the way stab him repeatedly until dead). With rapiers there would be a lot of fun combat possibilites... slashing, stabbing... for details on moves and so on just check out a fencing handbook.
And when you´re not hindered by armor, you can also evade. Otherwise you´re forced to parry (which has its advantages, as you stay within striking distance of the enemy).
BD, yes I am saying that we should invent new shields/defensive techniques, which would bring with them new strategies and more gameplay.
Ie. Playing something like D&D or Nethack, and the player can get all sorts of different offensive equipment. The +2.5 Sword of the slimy salamander etc. . But they hardly get any choice in terms of armour / shields. Any choice usually just upgrades the defensive stats = less damage.
Whereas, for a start there is the issue of positioning of the armour / shield. If it is at the front, then they can advance etc. If heavier at the rear, then they can retreat in "greater safety".
But what happens when we start to give more interesting properties to shields?
Ie. Playing something like D&D or Nethack, and the player can get all sorts of different offensive equipment. The +2.5 Sword of the slimy salamander etc. . But they hardly get any choice in terms of armour / shields. Any choice usually just upgrades the defensive stats = less damage.
Whereas, for a start there is the issue of positioning of the armour / shield. If it is at the front, then they can advance etc. If heavier at the rear, then they can retreat in "greater safety".
But what happens when we start to give more interesting properties to shields?
June 07, 2001 02:59 PM
I don''t think the NetHack example is a valid comparison.
Yes, there are many different weapons, but in the end they modify only three values: chance to hit, damage, damage type. And you typically only use one (or two) weapons at any given time.
On the defensive side, a player has a choice of many different types of protective devices. Like weapons, they only modify a few values: damage reduction, chance to be hit, protection from a particular type of attack.
Looks the same to me.
Yes, there are many different weapons, but in the end they modify only three values: chance to hit, damage, damage type. And you typically only use one (or two) weapons at any given time.
On the defensive side, a player has a choice of many different types of protective devices. Like weapons, they only modify a few values: damage reduction, chance to be hit, protection from a particular type of attack.
Looks the same to me.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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