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Original post by Daaark Quote: Original post by Kest I'm distracted by off-the-wall things in games that would otherwise be consistently reasonable. The floating/spinning power-up icons in the GTA III+ series, for example. Engaging in a high speed chase across the city is great fun. But losing the police by picking up a floating ambient star doesn't make any sense to me. Just want to chime in here. Those stars are never placed out in the open, they are hidden in bushes and alleyways. You actually have to cut through into new areas to collect them, and it simulates losing the cops pretty well I think.

Actually, they were placed out in the open quite a few times. And they were called "bribes", which doesn't suggest that they were meant to emulate losing the police through a chase. More like stopping to a halt, getting out of your car, finding invisible money, and paying off an invisible dirty cop.

Still, the main problem is the presentation. They're ambient floating icons in a world that would otherwise look and feel natural. They detract from the atmosphere. I think it would have been possible to implement all of the same gameplay with less obtrusive presentation.

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Original post by Kest Quote: Original post by Daaark Quote: Original post by Kest I'm distracted by off-the-wall things in games that would otherwise be consistently reasonable. The floating/spinning power-up icons in the GTA III+ series, for example. Engaging in a high speed chase across the city is great fun. But losing the police by picking up a floating ambient star doesn't make any sense to me. Just want to chime in here. Those stars are never placed out in the open, they are hidden in bushes and alleyways. You actually have to cut through into new areas to collect them, and it simulates losing the cops pretty well I think. Actually, they were placed out in the open quite a few times. And they were called "bribes", which doesn't suggest that they were meant to emulate losing the police through a chase. More like stopping to a halt, getting out of your car, finding invisible money, and paying off an invisible dirty cop. Still, the main problem is the presentation. They're ambient floating icons in a world that would otherwise look and feel natural. They detract from the atmosphere. I think it would have been possible to implement all of the same gameplay with less obtrusive presentation.

Where were they out in the opened? I play GTA all the time, all of them except 4 since I have no next gen system yet.

The closest one I remember to being out in the open is the one that is in an island in the middle of 2 streets in vice city, but is covered with bushes.

In order to collect any of them, you have to drive through an alley, or jump off a ramp, over a big fence, or go through another out of the way place where you aren't easily followed, and it simulates losing them, the same way you'd see it in a car chase movie.

There aren't any police bribe icons (badly named) laying out in the middle of the street, or on people's front lawns. That's what Pay and Sprays are for!

You're right. The stars I remember being out in the open were reached from jumps. The jumps don't really seem like ideal concepts for losing the police, but I'll just let that go. Like I said, it was the presentation that seemed most out of place. Back alleys and certain obscure places could have just dropped a wanted star when you entered them. There wasn't really a need to run over a powerup.

However, I'll admit that having them there makes it possible to avoid them while still driving through the obscure places. I did that a lot, because I loved trying to survive police chases for long periods of time.

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Original post by Telastyn Quote: Original post by Argus2 Seems to me that because you don't understand their experiences, you'd prefer to classify them as being depressed and having "life problems". Evidently this is easier for you to accept than the possibility that someone might be having more vivid experiences than yourself. A vivid delusion is still a delusion. And while your assessment is normally an insightful one. Not in my case though. It's not a reaction to envy of vivid experience; it's seeing those experiences which relate so closely to my own experiences with consuming depression (and the reactions to that). ... There's a difference between entertainment as something to draw your attention from every day problems and fantasizing about being someone else.

Firstly, I appreciate you not reacting to my point as though it was a flame.

But I still think your opinion of the 'escapists' is too narrow. Consider the case where vivid experience/empathy promotes the playing of computer games (which I think in many cases it does). Now playing a lot of video games is likely to lead to "life problems" (since the general public's view of life does not include video games) and symptoms that might be classed as depression. In these cases, claiming to have vivid experiences isn't a mask for "life problems" and depression, it's simply evidence for the fact that a love of games is often linked to a lack of time spent in other pursuits which translates to "life problems" in the general public's view.

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Original post by Telastyn A vivid delusion is still a delusion. And while your assessment is normally an insightful one. Not in my case though. It's not a reaction to envy of vivid experience; it's seeing those experiences which relate so closely to my own experiences with consuming depression (and the reactions to that).

"Delusion"? You might want to consult a dictionary before you start getting too insulting.

As well, the majority of people are not severely depressed nor have been so previously, as you claim to have been yourself (or been associated with). Hence the mental immersion people are discussing here is not a product of such dysfunction.

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There's a difference between entertainment as something to draw your attention from every day problems and fantasizing about being someone else.

To an extent yes, but the difference is largely splitting hairs. The origin of your desire for escapism is what needs examination (i.e. idle entertainment vs avoiding issues requiring attention), not the form your escapism takes place. People fantasize about being something they have no chance of being (the opportunity to be a crusty yet noble Dwarven warrior-king isn't in my future) and it's not a bad thing.

When I play basketball and imagine that I am in fact the one and only Michael Jordan, number 23 in Bull's red... is that unhealthy? No.

When I read a Warhammer 40k novel and imagine that I am that stalwart brother-sergeant defending humanity with my ancient bolter and mighty chainsword... is that unhealthy? No.

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It's that fantasizing about being someone else. IMO and everything that goes with it.

Fantasizing about being someone else happens all the time and is perfectly healthy - again, it's your reasons for doing so that may or may not require attention. Kids play cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, etc. (or used to anyway ^_^) not because they're poor depressed ne'er-do-wells, they do it to because imagination is a wonderful thing.

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When I read a Warhammer 40k novel and imagine that I am that stalwart brother-sergeant defending humanity with my ancient bolter and mighty chainsword... is that unhealthy? No.

And I respectfully disagree.

Games played with extreme imagination provide a means to exist with variety. That's it.

On the topic of Virtuality (usually causing Introversion) vs Reality (Extroversion), the key element here is Balance. You cannot be completely of one side without it becoming unhealthy for you. But with that said, you shouldn't fear the other side if you are only familiar with one side. People need to have a bit of everything, experience a bit of everything, in order to live healthier lives.

Not that I'm an expert on this sort of thing or anything.

Since the dawn of time people have told stories around campfires (Virtuality) whilest worrying about food, predators, other tribes, and etc (Reality). Imagine if Imagination were to completely not exist - we would not be human. If we couldn't imagine and fantasize we wouldn't have those paintings on cave walls, we wouldn't have art, literature, music, dance, drama, theaters, movies, and more. Similarly, imagine if Practicality were to completely not exist - we would simply die out. We need both to be human, both in varied amounts. How much of each? Well the answer to that question can only be personally judged by your own self.

Fantasizing and Imagining are powerful tools, but they are just that, mental tools we evolved with to which we use to discover new information, find creative solutions, or express ourselves. And like with any tool, you could use it to help yourself or hurt yourself.

On one of the commentary tracks on one of the trillion DVDs I own, I heard the director talk about how you can make anything plausible as long as you establish the rules early on, and build on them. He called it something like 'the steps of believability'.

I was in a discussion on another board about Die Hard 4, and how I didn't enjoy it very much because it was too much of a stretch from the previous entries in the series which were more grounded in reality. It was more in line with other modern action movies that make it seem like a live action video game.

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Original post by Telastyn Quote: When I read a Warhammer 40k novel and imagine that I am that stalwart brother-sergeant defending humanity with my ancient bolter and mighty chainsword... is that unhealthy? No. And I respectfully disagree.

I'd say your definition of health is clearly unhealthy. Those who can't empathise are literally psychopathic.