Hey cool, Sloper replied to me.

Thanks for the replies- though I think some of you were taking too many liberties with your assumptions.

I only post as a means to cover my butt. I'd rather not suggest somebody do a project that would get them in a world of trouble. However, it seems that as long as things are kept on a purely academic level, there's no harm.

I've thought about making a MTG program for fun before as well, as the interlocking/overriding/constantly-expanding rule-set is a real challenge to program for!

I didn't end up completing it, as I never ended up coming up with a flexible enough design for the engine. MTG has too many cards that just make up totally crazy rules that you didn't account for!

If I had have completed it, and was going to release it online though, my plan was to release it as a plug-in based "card game emulator engine", that could potentially support MTG if other people supplied all the artwork (which I'm sure they could easily find on BT...) and created their own rule-set plugins for the engine (which is actually one of the most time-consuming parts of development!).

That way I *think* it would have shifted all of the legal blame onto the people who made the MTG plugin for my generic card-game engine.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman

If I had have completed it, and was going to release it online though, my plan was to release it as a plug-in based "card game emulator engine", that could potentially support MTG if other people supplied all the artwork (which I'm sure they could easily find on BT...) and created their own rule-set plugins for the engine (which is actually one of the most time-consuming parts of development!).

That way I *think* it would have shifted all of the legal blame onto the people who made the MTG plugin for my generic card-game engine.

The "shifting blame" game doesn't really work in copyright. You can't actually shift legal blame (although you can request indemnification, typically via reps and warranty) because in a copyright infringement claim you can sue everyone who participates in the infringement, whether directly, vicariously or contributorily.

I'm all for keeping things academic, but there are better places to discuss legal theory. Like law school. Or your lawyer's office. :)

Quote: Original post by madelelaw

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
If I had have completed it, and was going to release it online though, my plan was to release it as a plug-in based "card game emulator engine"

The "shifting blame" game doesn't really work in copyright. ...you can sue everyone who participates in the infringement, whether directly, vicariously or contributorily.

This is irrelevant ;) But this hypothetical situation [[I make a platform for playing card-games, someone else extends my platform to support a copyrighted game, and I get sued]] makes just as much sense as charging the manufacturer of a base-ball bat for assault when someone gets beat up with one!!!

(except for the fact that I've now publicly admitted that my intention was to allow that copyrighted game to be played. But obviously if I had have went through with this hypothetical platform I would have made no such admissions or encouragements... leaving me with no intent to support infringement and committing no infringement myself.)

Quote: Original post by Hodgman

Quote: Original post by madelelaw

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
If I had have completed it, and was going to release it online though, my plan was to release it as a plug-in based "card game emulator engine"

The "shifting blame" game doesn't really work in copyright. ...you can sue everyone who participates in the infringement, whether directly, vicariously or contributorily.

This is irrelevant ;) But this hypothetical situation [[I make a platform for playing card-games, someone else extends my platform to support a copyrighted game, and I get sued]] makes just as much sense as charging the manufacturer of a base-ball bat for assault when someone gets beat up with one!!!

Not really. Unless you were really careful to avoid the problem the lawyers against you will probably claim that your intent was to provide a system to duplicate the IP of their clients.

A similar thing happened to City of Heroes: they were sued by at least one of the big comic book publishers (Marvel, I think) for having players play as Marvel characters. The argument was similar: that the character creation tool hinted towards various comic book character archetypes, like giving character claws or purple shorts (I'm a bit hazy on the specifics).

The problem with legal issues is things aren't clearly black and white: there's a huge amount of grey in there too. And in this framework there's a lot of room to sue people for infringement if you feel they're getting too close to your IP. It's the reason why you really do need to get a lawyer to look over these things if you project is serious to help reduce the risk of an unnecessary lawsuit.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman

Quote: Original post by madelelaw

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
If I had have completed it, and was going to release it online though, my plan was to release it as a plug-in based "card game emulator engine"

The "shifting blame" game doesn't really work in copyright. ...you can sue everyone who participates in the infringement, whether directly, vicariously or contributorily.

This is irrelevant ;) But this hypothetical situation [[I make a platform for playing card-games, someone else extends my platform to support a copyrighted game, and I get sued]] makes just as much sense as charging the manufacturer of a base-ball bat for assault when someone gets beat up with one!!!

(except for the fact that I've now publicly admitted that my intention was to allow that copyrighted game to be played. But obviously if I had have went through with this hypothetical platform I would have made no such admissions or encouragements... leaving me with no intent to support infringement and committing no infringement myself.)

Yeah, it definitely worked out that way for Grokster. Plausible deniability is only really effective if it is plausible. Here, it isn't-- the platform is designed to function as an online MTG, it's suggested that infringement will occur, so even if there is no actual knowledge there would be sufficient constructive knowledge to assert liability.

Quote: Original post by madelelaw
Yeah, it definitely worked out that way for Grokster. Plausible deniability is only really effective if it is plausible. Here, it isn't-- the platform is designed to function as an online MTG, it's suggested that infringement will occur, so even if there is no actual knowledge there would be sufficient constructive knowledge to assert liability.

Comparing this to Grokster is a bit harsh! You're misrepresenting my hypothetical platform there! I think I mustn't have explained myself properly...

In my hypothesis, the platform is designed to play card games, such as blackjack, poker, hearts. There is no link to MTG at all, overt or covert. It would be distributed with art and rule-set for public-domain games only, and this would be it's intended purpose.

The only link to MTG (and every other card game out there!) is that it could "potentially support MTG if other people supplied all the artwork and created their own rule-set plugins for the engine".

So as far as I can tell, it would be as illegal as tools like Game Maker are...

In that case, wouldn't the blame simply be shifted from the card game developer, to the party that created the plugin?

If someone makes a Half-Life mod that spoofs Halo, then Valve wouldn't get in trouble. I suppose that's why makers of such tools offer disclaimers and license agreements. Such that you can use their app and tools to create whatever you like, so long as you're not stepping on something else's toes.

Quote: Original post by Funkapotamus
However, it seems that as long as things are kept on a purely academic level, there's no harm.

But you said it would be distributed.

Quote: Orignal post by Hodgman
I've thought about making a MTG program for fun before as well... my plan was to release it as a plug-in based "card game emulator engine", that could potentially support MTG if other people supplied all the artwork (which I'm sure they could easily find on BT...) and created their own rule-set plugins for the engine (which is actually one of the most time-consuming parts of development!).

This already exists, and has very thorough MtG support through plugins. It's best feature is that you can download entire libraries of every card ever made, and you can use this to design and test decks before hunting down or purchasing the cards you need.

Of course, you can also play MtG with it.