While playing mmos, one of my recurring frustrations has been that the gear which gives the right stats for my build and level is usually either ugly or mismatched. In addition I have seen several games where people love creating characters and can spend hours doing it (like Sims2 for example). So I was thinking, wouldn't it be smart to take an activity people love to do, i.e. making their characters look cool, and move it from where its potential is being wasted in the pregame phase into the game itself? I can see 2 ways to do this: first, it would be possible to start all players with a generic avatar and make several of the low level quests have rewards like getting the avatar's hair styled or colored. Second, clothing would not give stats, although it might still have level or faction reputation restrictions for cool special things like a cloak that gave the avatar wings or a belt that gave them a tail. Combined with this either an npc could dye clothing to any of a standard range of colors, or this could be implemented as a type of crafting players could do, probably by gathering the ingredients to make different colors of dye. So the main thing I am wondering is, do you think it would be a turn-off for players to have to start looking generic? And what sort of story/setting would it make sense to have generic people in, without being something players would have trouble empathizing with (such as playing an android)?

Starting players are usually ugly. The starting clothes worn and the armour and clothes accessible at the start are usually not very nice. seems your suggestion is more of finding a way to seperate the look from the function, a very good idea I think. There are two ways, allow the look to be changed on the standard set of the game, or make them minimally functional and shift the functions into enchant items that can be applied to the items to give the items that look good the funtions you want.

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Original post by sunandshadow So the main thing I am wondering is, do you think it would be a turn-off for players to have to start looking generic? And what sort of story/setting would it make sense to have generic people in, without being something players would have trouble empathizing with (such as playing an android)?

The player could be a lowly peasant from some far off village who wants to join a guild/faction/etc. After the player proves his/her worth, he/she gets the first set of clothing.

After learning crafts skills, clothing could be modified. However, I think just changing the dye is not enough, unless different dyes result in special properties or something.

Puzzle Pirates implemented something like this. The good looking clothes cost a bit and the best dye colors (black, maroon) are purposefully rare. They were going to (and last I heard had already) implement essentially unlockable hairstyles. And parrots/eyepatches/peglegs were super rare event prizes. None of the stuff provided any in game statistical benefit, but acted as a goal/money sink.

And to be fair, the clothing did provide social status which is very important in a game like that where most of your power comes from being able to round up a big/skilled/loyal crew rather than stats (since the game has no stats really) or knowledge or skill.

And the story about starting off as a lowly swabbie and working your way up the piratey ranks (as well as easily attainable low->mid level clothes) seemed to keep the grumbling down.

I think the biggest problem with moving appearance to quest rewards is that you potentially are just shifting the restricting factors to another area, rather than removing them.

While you remove the problem of having the good stats not fit the cool appearances, I think you run the risk of developing playstyle restricted appearance instead of game-stat restricted appearance: Where previously the stats werent suitable for your character, what happens when you have a quest which you find too hard to complete because of your player skills / play style? In that case you are unable to get the appearance at all, even with a different character, because it is limited by the player.

My question would be, what exactly is the intended role of appearance in game design terms?
If appearance is intended to be available to everyone (eg, the quests to access the various looks are all low level and completable eventually) then do the quests really have any benefit over simply allowing free access right from creation? When eventual success is a predetermined outcome, to me the prize at the end doesnt feel like a reward... rather it feels like the preceding quests were just chores.
On the other hand, if the prestige of having visible proof of completing the quest is part of the reward then by definition you cant make it easy enough for everybody to access it, and therefore there'll always be some percentage of people who "cant get the right look" for their character.

My preferred option is to have all appearances available apart from minor prestige details. Eg, everyone has access to "swirly mage robes" and can dye them whatever colours they like, but access to metallic red dye for the shoulder trim might be a prestige reward. The items would have a default appearance, but from there the items can be crafted to whatever appearance they want for a cost that is proportional to the stats.


Anyway... realising I didnt answer the main question... Im not a fan of having to start with a generic look... At least, I wouldnt be in a setting like most current MMOs use. I tend to create characters with a background and story, and appearance is often a part of that. Having a character that looks generic can break the mood of characters I have in mind if the idea suggests an appearance. For example, playing an absentminded character with a background a street-urchin might suggest a dishevelled appearance - being forced to play a clean-cut generic character might stifle that idea, and would make me frustrated with the game unless the world background had already prepared me for the generic look.

I think the key is that a generic look has to be very strongly tied into the world setting, in order to give a basis to build character ideas from. To me, that means that the setting needs to be quite specific and well defined. A generic setting, be it fantasy, sci-fi, whatever, cant manage that level of explanation of specific concepts.

So... brainstorm on appropriate story/settings that explain generic look:
Anything man-made or created that could reasonably be produced in bulk - zombies, skeletons, frankenstein type creatures, robots... Somebody is creating them, you are one and your task is to follow their commands and improve your skills in order to be useful to them, etc.
Anything non-human enough that small visual differences arent important anyway - Eg, a colony of lizard-men. Most people cant tell apart two lizards of the same species in real life at first sight, so a homogenous group of lizards doesnt seem unusual in the way homogenous humans would. The challenge here is more explaining how they might later become different, so that players can satisfy their desire to be unique.
Creatures that are different, but are not allowed to display it - Uniforms, disguises, etc. Eg, a religious cult with strict dress codes. The player begins as an acolyte, who must wear the proper clothing and a faceless mask at all times to show their devotion; as they progress, they earn the right to wear more prestigious clothing of the order.

Thats it for ideas off the top of my head...

sunandshadow, you might want to take a look at Hero's Journey. IIRC, their idea for player customization sounds an awful lot like what you just suggested.

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Original post by Jerky sunandshadow, you might want to take a look at Hero's Journey. IIRC, their idea for player customization sounds an awful lot like what you just suggested.

Erm, any more specific suggestions on where to look? Is the info in the forums somewhere?



Caffiene - Well I'm not actually making an mmo so it's all theoretical anyway, but yes if I were making one I would intend it to have a detailed and fleshed out original setting including a story reason for everyone to start out looking generic. I'm making a list of various situations where there are a lot of people that look the same (and would be expected to be learning about a new environment and perhaps new abilities). None of the ideas particularly grabs me yet, but maybe inspiration will strike. Whatever I chose the intention would be for you the player to establish your character's personality through in-game choices.

Not sure I really understand your objection to it being the intention for people to succeed at quests - typically in an mmo or a regular rpg even if a quest is very difficult when you first get it you can just wait until you are a higher level, or consult a walkthrough or wiki, or get a friend to help, or use money to leverage your way through. Assuming that being able to progress in the game's story is tied to being able to succeed at quests, the quests shouldn't be too difficult for all players to complete, because you don't want to lock people out of seeing what happens next in the story. But certainly it's good to have prestige items that people will think are really cool and will be willing to work hard to earn (perhaps with faction reputation requirements or pvp requirements or profession level requirements), and others that are fun random drops or spawns. I particularly like WoW's method of soulbinding gear on equip because it helps the market not get flooded with craftable stuff or common drops since every item can only be sold once. (Not bind on pickup though, that's BS)

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Original post by sunandshadow Not sure I really understand your objection to it being the intention for people to succeed at quests - typically in an mmo or a regular rpg even if a quest is very difficult when you first get it you can just wait until you are a higher level, or consult a walkthrough or wiki, or get a friend to help, or use money to leverage your way through. Assuming that being able to progress in the game's story is tied to being able to succeed at quests, the quests shouldn't be too difficult for all players to complete, because you don't want to lock people out of seeing what happens next in the story.

Well, my annoyance with it basically comes from what happens in the situation where you cant complete the quest when you first try it. If I know that Im pretty much guaranteed complete it eventually, but I need more levels first to be strong enough to complete the quest... what youve essentially created is appearance customisation as a reward for grinding. Now, to me grinding is a chore, so the general feeling is that I have to do something repetitive and boring before I get the good part. (and in this case, that means "before my character can even look like how I want them to look").

That said, im not necessarily saying its worse than current systems. Just pointing out that some adjustments to try and avoid that "grind reward" feeling could improve it further. Targetting the quests as non-combat quests for example (eg, riddles and puzzles) might be one method, since you dont need to grind to be able to finish the quest...

Ultima Online is built sort of how you describe sunandshadow, assuming I'm reading you correctly. You start the game a generic character with some basic equipment that depends on your chosen starting skills (like archery will start with you a bow in hand). After that there's tons of ways to customize your look, from dye tubs, to tailors (including rare colored cloths that can be obtained), to blacksmiths (who can use colored ores), even NPC "barbers" who'll let you change your hair style and color for a fee.

But armor in UO still gives stats, so there's still the issue of having powerful gear that's ugly. This could be resolved by not having items factor into the gameplay, but that'd probably mean a major rethinking of rpg mechanics (which traditionally factor in equipment stats).

Anyways, nobody I ever met in UO minded starting out or ultimately being a generic character (every player looks the same without hair and equipment, though skin shades can vary). And much of UO gameplay revolves around finding equipment to customize your look. Is that something like you're talking about?

There are a lot of games that start you off with a generic character. YPP was already mentioned, but others in the MMO genre are Entropia Universe and Second Life. In both EU and SL users are creating the actual clothing as well. In EU, it's part of the game, in SL it's so that they can sell it. These MMOs make money off of the fact that you're buying stuff though, so they have incentives to make you look generic. In the case where your gear reflects your earned status, it still provides incentive for your to continue playing the game, which itself is just a different monetization strategy.

In addition, the dress-up genre itself is growing a lot, where the whole point is that you start with a generic character, with games like IMVU (more focused on chatting with people) and Jojo's Fashion Show. I saw a panel at GDC where are a speaker from Lifetime Television was talking about how successful these games have been for their audience as well. They have an entire section for dress-up games.

I haven't really answered your question about the story/setting where it makes sense to look generic I guess. Someone mentioned the character as a peasant. Fable takes this approach, and your looks change as you progress through the game. Another option could be a similar outsider scenario, as an alien or member of a different culture that is trying to assimilate and rise through the ranks of the new culture (which apparently holds incredible stake in its members fashion).