I think the more important question: is player "death" an interesting enough mechanic to warrant redesigning the health bar? Or should we just throw out the whole concept of "punishment through repetition" that player death invokes?

Game elements don't all have to be simulation. I don't want to have cars crash realistically in Halo, and I don't want realistic physics in Smash Brothers and I don't want wound modelling in my hack&slash game. I want a numerical value that I can counter with red potions to stay alive and active. A broken arm is all well and good in Oregon Trail (Why isn't there an MMO of that, anyway?) but I don't want my guy in COD4 to pull his hamstring and not be able to sidestep. I've got enough to worry about.

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Original post by JBourrie I think the more important question: is player "death" an interesting enough mechanic to warrant redesigning the health bar? Or should we just throw out the whole concept of "punishment through repetition" that player death invokes?

It also, along with help from the usual save when you want saving system invokes the save-before-hard-parts behavior creating more repetition. In Oblivion I save before pickpocketing and reload, the limit to what I cant take isn't my skill, its my patients reloading saves. In a similar way people save before hard fights. That is in large part the save system making that possible, but its also the difficulty and health system making in necessary.

What would be a better form of player punishment for failure to kill the badguys?
"20 demons just swarmed you and you fight hard but to no avail." - what is the alternative to death?

Also, I am liking the health system of death if there is too much damage in a short time, but I think there needs to a reward or punishment for finishing a group of baddies without taking much damage. In most games, thats more health for the next fight, if it recovers very quickly then it never matters if you just barely get through the fight or if you are really good. I don't want to extend the recovery time for my game at least because I think that the system could yield really fast passed intense gameplay (though forcing a breather after a fight with a health recovery time might be needed). What ways could be used to reward the player for killing enemies without taking a lot of damage?

My project has a pretty complex damage system, but still displays character vitality via a simple health value. Each body part has a mortality assigned to it, then damage on that part is scaled by its mortality and subtracted from the character's total vitality. Here's a screenshot of the complicated mess that's usually hidden from the player. It will likely be possible to view this information in detail with a medkit display or character status screen, but the gameplay screen will only display a single vitality.

In response to the issue about characters being disabled without dying, there's an easy solution to it. Disabled characters should be treated as though they are dead. Or at least incapacitated. If a character loses all of his limbs, he's finished. Most of my AI characters are finished if they just lose one limb. Zombies are a bit more resilient, though.

I don't think the problem here is the health bar but the need to have more things happening besides the health bar. Having severe hits that automatically debuff are fine. They can work like a second hit that is less likely to hit, or a just a traditional proc.

Or something like Mass Effect where you have debuffs put on you when you are close to death.

If you start making every hit result in a physical impact then you may want to use a system like Halo where the player has shields and then health. The shields could also be called endurance or mana in a fantasy setting. The idea here is that the player can use their endurance to defend themselves but once that is low they will get physically hit by an attack which leads to health loss and physical harm(debuff).

There could also be a balance system or initiative system that opens up a player to being physically hit.

Other health systems of note:

Smash Brothers. You don't have a 'health', per se. You have a percentage, and the higher that gets, the more impact attacks have on you. Thus, if you're at a low percent, you are barely stunned by attacks, but at high percents, you're knocked clear off the board. Some characters (Lucario) become stronger as their percentage increases.

Eternal Darkness. As your sanity meter decreases, things start to get pretty creepy. Stay 'insane' long enough, and your character starts dying.

Lost Odyssey. Your immortals will regenerate after being dead for a few turns, making health not such a big deal. However, once your entire team goes down, it's over.

Final Fantasy 7. Not really a novel health system, but brought in a concept of gaining rewards as you lose health in the form of limit breaks. Devil May Cry 2 had something similar (a special Devil Trigger activated when your health got low).

Gears of War. Already mentioned, I believe - if you are not killed in a short span of time, your health regenerates. A few games have a similar 'shield' system, where the shield regenerates and must be depleted before you take damage.

I very much don't like the idea of losing capabilities as my health decreases, since that reduces the possibility of me, well, regaining the health or surviving with low health.

As for health being a simple success metric with no real impact on the gameplay, I'm fine with this. It works in a lot of games. I know that X enemy is going to do Y to my health if he hits me with that giant ax, and that's reason enough to move out of the way. I don't need to lose a leg to know that perhaps standing still was a mistake, and if that happens I'm now frustrated because, well, I might as well be dead. As for reflecting that you're not at your best when hurt, I think simply being 'stunned' does enough. It sets the enemy up to do more, but there's still the possibility of me making it away or blocking before the enemy can pull off 2 * Y damage.

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Original post by JasRonq What would be a better form of player punishment for failure to kill the badguys? "20 demons just swarmed you and you fight hard but to no avail." - what is the alternative to death?

If "20 demons just swarmed you" is a gameplay mechanic, player death is the best option we've come up with yet.

Then again, enough games have done the "20 demons just swarmed you" scenario... why not try something new? Hunting games have done a great job of modifying their scenario so that player death is no longer necessary... if you mess it up, you just don't get that kill.

What exactly is the purpose of player death for gameplay? It's mostly an incentive to play more skillfully, and to avoid careless decisions. Once players become skilled at a game, death can become pretty rare. Once it rarely happens, it becomes more of an annoying accident trap than an incentive. A reason to give up, rather than to play better.

There are other ways to incite an immortal player to be careful. Such as the need to protect someone other than himself. Or having to pay money to repair body damage. Or losing partial abilities because of damage and requiring time or a resource to regenerate.

Just comment out the player character event that occurs between 1HP and 0HP and see what happens.

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Original post by JBourrie Quote: Original post by JasRonq What would be a better form of player punishment for failure to kill the badguys? "20 demons just swarmed you and you fight hard but to no avail." - what is the alternative to death? If "20 demons just swarmed you" is a gameplay mechanic, player death is the best option we've come up with yet. Then again, enough games have done the "20 demons just swarmed you" scenario... why not try something new? Hunting games have done a great job of modifying their scenario so that player death is no longer necessary... if you mess it up, you just don't get that kill.

Doing something new is all well and good, but the rampant bloodbath of demon killing and the subsequent swarming by 20 of them when the player runs too far in is a provenly enjoyable gameplay focus, well, the killing part, not always the death.

How would a mechanism that saved the player from death at the 1hp mark by transporting him to the last safe zone affect gameplay and the players feel of the game? What would be an appropriate cost to the player to recover from such a state?