Ry asked:
>What if, in the future when making my sequel, I could arrange to buy them out for their "share" of the copyright.

Then everything would be just hunky-dory, wouldn't it. Do you still have a question?

Quote: Original post by Rybis
As in online just for fun - as if I made a team now on GameDev with strangers over the internet.

In that case all my points above do apply.

Quote: What if, in the future when making my sequel, I could arrange to buy them out for their "share" of the copyright.

Yes that would certainly be possible. However, their rights are currently worth very little (as this is just a hobby game). As soon as you want to make a commercial sequel the idea becomes worth money and their copyright becomes valuable. Makes negotiating more difficult.

[Edited by - Obscure on February 20, 2008 5:58:35 AM]

Quote: Original post by Obscure

Quote: But then how would this be proved?

You would need an assignment of rights agreement drawn up by a lawyer... assuming that the team will agree to sign it. Such an agreement will cost money.

But these are just people I've met over the internet on GameDev (example).
So I doubt they'd willingly let me track them down and get them to sign something - when they could join another team with less trouble to join.

Quote: Original post by Rybis

Quote: Original post by Obscure

Quote: But then how would this be proved?

You would need an assignment of rights agreement drawn up by a lawyer... assuming that the team will agree to sign it. Such an agreement will cost money.

But these are just people I've met over the internet on GameDev (example).
So I doubt they'd willingly let me track them down and get them to sign something - when they could join another team with less trouble to join.

You asked a question. He gave you the answer. Now you appear to be saying nothing more than that the answer is not suitable for your purposes.
It's too bad that reality often doesn't suit one's purposes, but... well, that's reality for you.
The answer to your "purely hypothetical" original question has already been given to you. If you want to make a sequel to a collaborative project, you have to either:
1. Have originally worked out the issues of ownership and sequel rights in the original project, or
2. Work out those issues now, or
3. Work them out when they come up eventually, should you choose to proceed without having done 1 or 2 above.

You didn't do 1, and you're just saying 2 is difficult. Going the 3 route could get ugly.

Quote: Original post by Rybis
But these are just people I've met over the internet on GameDev (example).
So I doubt they'd willingly let me track them down and get them to sign something - when they could join another team with less trouble to join.

So give up on the idea then.

Like others have commented on, you need to talk to an attorney. Before work even began on our titles we setup contracts that clearly stated IP ownership.

Is the IP even worth trying to secure to do a sequel to?

Quote: Original post by Tom Sloper
If you can't afford a lawyer, you can't afford to enter into this kind of collaboration.

It is obviously ideal to have all legalities taken care of up front.

But I don't think this is realistic for many small indie projects, which may have started out as simply a hobby, often by people who have no knowledge of legal issues, nor any budget to hire a lawyer.

So really, I'm not sure what this advice is actually trying to say.
Is it, "don't ever collaborate in a game project unless you first hire a lawyer?"
Or is it, "you've done something wrong if your little indie pet project has unexpectedly grown into something you may wish to sell?"

Tom, I'm a big fan of your website, and all the invaluable advice you've given. I just don't get this bit. Maybe I'm just missing your meaning. Is this advice only meant to apply to commercial endeavors (which could arise far after the initial teamwork began)?


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I'll try to give an analogy from a programmer's perspective.

If someone said to me, "I've made a game, and I didn't plan on having it multiplayer, but now I want/need to add multiplayer code."

My response wouldn't be "If you don't build the game from the ground up with multiplayer support, you never should have started."

Instead it would be, "It would have been easier if you had anticipated this, but here's my recommendation for what to do next..."

The alternative to getting everyone to sign contracts, is to just get everyone to release their work under a completely non-restrictive licence.

Creative-commons, the zlib licence, a statement saying it's "public domain", etc...

Then anyone can legally make a sequel ;)

woc wote:
>I don't think this is realistic for many small indie projects, which may have started out as simply a hobby, often by people who have no knowledge of legal issues, nor any budget to hire a lawyer.

Fair enough.

>So really, I'm not sure what this advice is actually trying to say.
Is it, "don't ever collaborate in a game project unless you first hire a lawyer?"

No.

>Or is it, "you've done something wrong if your little indie pet project has unexpectedly grown into something you may wish to sell?"

It's, "If you didn't reach a written understanding together, don't come crying to us about it now. If now you want to make money from that project, lawyers will be getting involved."

>Is this advice only meant to apply to commercial endeavors (which could arise far after the initial teamwork began)?

Yes. If nobody wants to try to make money off the thing, no legalities are even remotely an issue.

>I'll try to give an analogy from a programmer's perspective.

I love analogies!

>If someone said to me, "I've made a game, and I didn't plan on having it multiplayer, but now I want/need to add multiplayer code."
>My response wouldn't be "If you don't build the game from the ground up with multiplayer support, you never should have started."
>Instead it would be, "It would have been easier if you had anticipated this, but here's my recommendation for what to do next..."

Right. So if somebody says, "I collaborated on a game, and we never anticipated making any money from it, but now I want to do that but there's [some kind of problem with my former collaborators]," I don't say "You never should have started," I say, "Get a lawyer."

Precisely because now it's going in a money direction. Costs money to make money. Welcome to the world of business.

I'm happy to have clarified that!

Right, so once money + IP is involved, get a lawyer, if you haven't already.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the reply.