I think the answer lies in the fact that this particular part of the forum deals with Game Desigh, and the most obvious part of game design is dealing with telling stories. It''s harder to talk about what makes for good game design with say....first person shooters, because basically the genre itself IS the game design.

The elements of game design are many and varied. Think of something relatively simple like chess. You have an objective. You have different "units". You have different moves for different units. There are certain rules that apply to certain units. Game design centers mostly on balance, and making the game strategically involving.

But game balance and depth are hard terms to discuss about. I won''t even get into what makes a game challenging or fun, because thats VERY subjective. So the easiest thing to talk bout is RPG''s and the world it revolves around. User interfaces are another easy thing to talk about since it''s so objective and quantifiable.

The hard stuff to talk about in game design are the nebulous concepts like game baance, level of diffuculty, immersiveness, replay value, single player vs. multiplayer, etc etc are more diffucult topics to discuss (and these apply to aLL games)

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

bah, nothing wrong with a spirited discussion. Wav is probably my favorite person on this forum actually.

Hah!

quote:
Well anyway maybe I don''t know everything about RPGs but honestly they just seem to be mostly filler. Some of my favorite games were RPGs actually, but after a couple good RPGs I think I''ve had enough story based entertainment. I guess I read too many books as a kid or something.

Well, as far as over emphasis on story goes, I think we agree. I''d actually like to see RPGs include more non-linear story telling freedom and less "fedex knight" quests or missions to "kill foozle." (Filler, IMO)

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Counterstrike is the most popular FPS, or it was when I last checked.

Whoa. I don''t know what the sales figures are, but I have to admit that I have to be wrong on this one! The game servers and download sites are jammed full for a game with outdated graphics but kick a## gameplay.

Okay, maybe there''s hope yet...

quote:
Dying really easily kind of helps too, makes you more cautious (not sure if this is what you meant by damage model, I assume you meant the head/chest/etc.. system)

No I meant the same thing you were talking about in terms of how an easy death changes your entire style of play (that and the teamplay aspect). Rather than the Quake/Unreal damage model where just about the only insta-kill weapon is the railgun or rockets. (Actually, it''s not just the damage model, but also includes the stuff like accuracy and stealth as well)



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quote: Or we could talk the FF series, I hesitate to even call them games. They are movies with bland battles mixed in.

I''d like to disagree with you on that one, but you can think what you want. Most of you seem to not like stories, and would rather see less linear gameplay. If you want less linear gameplay go play everquest or something. Personally I think a game with a balance of linearism (is that word) and freedom of movement would be perfect.

I think the lasting appeal in an RPG is the mix of story with control. RPG''s are epics with character development, and all that good stuff you would normally see in your English classes. Except you get to control the character, you sometimes get to choose your destiny, who you are, how powerful you become, and what you learn. One of my favorite fps, is Deus Ex, which is more of an RPG. It has engaging gameplay along with a lasting message, something that you can learn from and use to gain wisdom.

I look at rpg boards and they talk about things we talk about in books in my English class. They talk about character development, they write fan fiction, but they talk gameplay too. They talk about equipment, fighting strategies, secrets, how to get the most out of the game, and at the same time, get the most out of a great story.

The only game I think that can ever be called a masterpiece, i a game with an excellent story that gives someone a form of enlightenment for the rest of their life, something they will remember forever and expand upon with further knowledge.

Nebula: Damn what a challenge: "Write a game story that enlightens people and that they will remember forever!" I have read thousands of novels, and out of those less than ten meet your criteria. I''ve been trying for 3 years to figure out where that handful succeeded where the rest failed, and I still only have a few clues: They all had a strongly characterized society that a main character loved in some way and fought against in some way, and characters that REALLY wanted whatever it was they wanted. Do you know any more than I do? You tell me how to write the story everyone craves, and I''ll write it.

- What some people call "freedom", others call "lack of an objective". - Lubb

quote: Original post by Nebula
Most of you seem to not like stories, and would rather see less linear gameplay. If you want less linear gameplay go play everquest or something.

You know, I might play EverQuest if it was non-Tolkein and had no people. (Perhaps for me, the "or something" is what applies)

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I look at rpg boards and they talk about things we talk about in books in my English class.

I think the major problem I have is most stories in games suck when stood against even an average novel. I haven''t exactly figured out why that is, but I guess (for me, maybe others) that it''s not just the talent of the writers. While that''s a big factor, there''s something disturbing about having a good story interrupted by doing something else.

Not until playing is story (in the literary sense) do I think this will go away.

quote: Original post by Lubb

- What some people call "freedom", others call "lack of an objective". - Lubb

And what some people call "having an objective" others call "being led around by the nose."

I guess that''s why they make chocolate and vanilla, eh?

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quote: Original post by Wavinator

I think the major problem I have is most stories in games suck when stood against even an average novel. I haven''t exactly figured out why that is, but I guess (for me, maybe others) that it''s not just the talent of the writers. While that''s a big factor, there''s something disturbing about having a good story interrupted by doing something else.

Not until playing is story (in the literary sense) do I think this will go away.

Care to elaborate on what you mean by "playing is a story in the literary sense?

At any rate, I think it''s entirely possible to make a computer game with a story as good as that of the best book (although a movie or graphic novel is IMHO a better thing to compare game stories with). Graphic novels are also frequently criticized for having terrible plots. I think at least one major cause of this is the "too many cooks" problem. Design by committee is a recipy for mediocrity. I''ve seen a great story written by 2 people. More than that? Elfquest (the story collections, not the graphic novels, those suck) and Star Trek are the best I can think of, which I would say is about equal to the quality of an FF story - good, with great spots and lousy spots. And the root of the too many cooks problem is the medium itself - how many people out there can produce a graphic novel or a computer game by themselves? Damn few, at least until we get a lot more user-friendly design tools. (Although you can already see the beneficial effect tablets and other graphic peripherals are having on independant comics and comix.)

Another Problem: The people who want to write professionally generally don''t consider writing for computer games. Computer games now have the same kind of pulp image science fiction had in the 50s, and this will probably change as the field evolves. (Ditto all that for comics.)

And Also: People who make computer games are afraid to alienate their audience by using too many or too big of WORDS. Even if you have the greatest artists there are, you still need to use WORDS when they will do the best job of telling the story and making it real to the audience. Voice acting is an alternative, but expensive, both in hiring actors and in storage space for all those sound files.

And finally: Most computer game stories are not chosen competitively from a pile of complete script submissions. If and when they are, you will see an immediate rise in quality to be at least equal with movies.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Care to elaborate on what you mean by "playing is a story in the literary sense?

I mean "in the literary sense" to distinguish from a loose collection of events that recount some sort of history but don''t really work as a fictional story. "I fought my way through a deep dungeon, killed the Lord of Evil, Diablo, and imprisoned his soul in my skull" may make for great gameplay but prolly is VERY lousy story.

When "play is story" the player''s natural palette of gameplay options will contain those things and only those things that eventually amount to a fine literary tale. If chronicled to another person, that tale would be interesting, and probably exhibit some multi-act whosit recognizable by English majors everywhere.

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At any rate, I think it''s entirely possible to make a computer game with a story as good as that of the best book

I don''t doubt that, but the latest efforts I''ve seen so far haven''t been promising as games. (Orson Scott Card''s poorly received anime game is one example I''m thinking of right now.)

That aside, with stories you get into issues around how of the experience is participatory versus non-interactive. Unfortunately, I think I''ve had this debate many times on this board already...

quote:
Another Problem: The people who want to write professionally generally don''t consider writing for computer games. Computer games now have the same kind of pulp image science fiction had in the 50s, and this will probably change as the field evolves. (Ditto all that for comics.)

btw, have you seen the efforts going on over at Skotos? They seem to hold promise for writing in games, and are lead by the illustrious Brian Moriarty himself.

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And Also: People who make computer games are afraid to alienate their audience by using too many or too big of WORDS.

You might be right, but you never know. Folks drawn to story games seem to me a bit, uh, more intellectually inclined than non-gamers. ''Course, a console future replete with busty Lara Crofts, Deer Hunters, and Barbies could change all that...

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And finally: Most computer game stories are not chosen competitively from a pile of complete script submissions. If and when they are, you will see an immediate rise in quality to be at least equal with movies.

Nor are they even chosen from a pile of design doc submissions. The biz and tools are WAAAAAY to immature for that, yet.

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quote: ...Folks drawn to story games seem to me a bit, uh, more intellectually inclined than non-gamers...

- People who don''t play RPG''s don''t, because RPG''s are boring. You can say that you like them and you can avoid guessing why most other people don''t, but don''t try to justify it with absurdities.
-And by the by, let us know when you have become the checkers world champion. You know how to play checkers, right?

quote: .... If chronicled to another person, that tale would be interesting, and probably exhibit some multi-act whosit recognizable by English majors everywhere. ....

- So, uh, what you want is not an interesting RPG, but an RPG that will make RPG players seem interesting? - Lubb

quote: ...Folks drawn to story games seem to me a bit, uh, more intellectually inclined than non-gamers* ...

* = emphasis added for clarity

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- People who don''t play RPG''s don''t, because RPG''s are boring.

Things that a person finds difficult to comprehend are sometimes considered boring, too. Trig, for instance, or quantuum intanglement theory, or first order predicate calculus.

''Course, sometimes the reverse is true, it''s too easy; and sometimes, it''s simply a preference for chocolate or vanilla.

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You can say that you like them and you can avoid guessing why most other people don''t, but don''t try to justify it with absurdities.

C''mon now, Lubb. Don''t be shy! Tell us how you really feel!!!

You maybe don''t like cRPGs. Well, okay. Until Gary Gygax, backed by Bill Clinton, OJ Simpson and the WTO, reemerges to take the world by storm in a fiendish plan of global domination, that''s actually okay!!!

quote:
-And by the by, let us know when you have become the checkers world champion. You know how to play checkers, right?

Uh, that''s that game where the Terrorists try to plant the bomb and the Counter-Terrorists try to stop them, right? Yeah, I''ve played that one...

quote:
- So, uh, what you want is not an interesting RPG, but an RPG that will make RPG players seem interesting? - Lubb

LOL!

Lubb, tell us how you really feel! Don''t hide it! It''s post envy, isn''t it? All these damned posts about RPGs!

Want to talk about strategy games instead? I''m trying to figure out how to blend an empire game with an... uh, oh... RPG... uh, *nevermind*.


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Just waiting for the mothership...