I''ve always known what I wanted to do (games programming... duh), but I was never going to be sure until I tried out the other stuff. I agree a lot of the stuff they teach is pretty useless to me, but it''s a general course and that''s what I''d expect. I''m glad because I can get a taste for all the other sub-fields in the computing area.

Perhaps it is ''very badly taught'' in some places, but I find it hard to believe that all the lecturers on a course throughout the whole 3 years (or whatever it is for your kind of degree) are teaching it badly. Sure, I''ve had bad lecturers, but I''ve also had damn good lecturers (IMO).

I have to say, though, that I am not surprised with your findings of most graduates. The majority of people on my course aren''t even interested in computing as far as I can tell. A lot of them just jumped on the bandwagon when they finished their A-Levels and figured it was either university or get a job, so they picked a computing degree because they want to get rich quick. So I am not too surprised that you have had underskilled applicants for programming jobs. The vast majority of people I know who study similar subjects at degree level hate programming, and just find it tedious, or at least they aren''t interested in it and don''t persue it outside of the lecture theatre. The degrees I''ve come across don''t seem to teach programming much past the very basics. They are more concerned with higher-level stuff like the quality of an interface, or the the advantages of a relational database over a heirarchical one. So most people are probably going to end up going off and writing HTML, java-script, SQL, that kind of stuff, or maybe they''ll bullshit themselves into a management position where they won''t need to know what they''re talking about

Well err... anyway I think my point was that university is what you make of it. If you take and interest and work at it, you can get a lot out of the opportunities for learning that are present, but if you just sit back and relax, occasionally doing some coursework between trips to the bar, you''re not going to come out with much more than a piece of paper and a funny-looking hat.

Harry.

You got to keep the hat? Damn I got ripped off!! haha

I think the posts in this thread pretty much say it all. A really good developer has a combination of education and ''roll up your sleeves and get to it'' work ethic. You need both.

I can remember getting really tired of studying data structures at the university I went to. I mean linked lists were cool to me at the time, but why the heck would I need to know about these binary trees, quadtrees, etc?

Well duh! Now that I am studying 3d programming these things are super important and I am *soooooo* glad I have that background from school.

Stay in school! and don''t do drugs!

Ok ok you can do drugs but definitely stay in school (grins)

DSutherland

My salery as an intern at a game company this summer will be $18.50 an hour, which is ~37k a year with 40 hour weeks.

As for school, you will get as much out of it as you put in. I have found it to complement my own CS studies. For instance, in Graphics1 this year, since I knew a lot of what was covered, I put a lot of extra work into it. I learned a lot more from it also. School also motivates me to learn the less fun aspects of CS.

That being said, university is not for everyone. I enjoy it becuase I have broader interests than only game dev; in fact being here broadend my intersts and I feel I''m better for it. As if college women weren''t reason enough


Mike

IMHO, thsi thread should discuss more imporant subject than what are the useful things learned at Uni. At the end, with or without degree, we all end up using C++, Dragon Book, Graphics Gems and rest of the relevant knowledge.

But why 22K ??? Or some other figures mentioned here? Having a cool job will not buy me a big house or a fancy car. I think that, unfortunately, there are way to many games and game developers around...

IMHO, this thread should discuss more imporant subject than what are the useful things learned at Uni. At the end, with or without degree, we all end up using C++, Dragon Book, Graphics Gems and rest of the relevant knowledge.

But why 22K ??? Or some other figures mentioned here? Having a cool job will not buy me a big house or a fancy car. I think that, unfortunately, there are way to many games and game developers around...

Salary:
I''m a Software Project Engineer; I have just under 2yrs professional coding experience; I make well over 50k (less than 60k) in a medium sized non-game company (~300 total employees, I write software to run test equipment). I have a B.S. in Math & Comp Sci.
While that gives you little idea of state of the game industry, it gives you a better idea of the non-games industries.

I was offered jobs maintaining databases in the mid-forties (I thought about taking it, but wanted to stay out of SQL programming - which is what I''m learning to do now via ADO ), VB programming for a contractor in the mid-thirties (told them to f@#$ themselves), and I jumped at the mid-fifties machinery command&control job.

…

quote:

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- KlePt0
I''m not bragging I''m just saying the only legitimate experience i have is 3 programming classes from high school. That kinda studff doesn''t always matter. What does, is being willing to spend every waking moment thinking programming. Being able to finish a 3 month project in a month and a hal, all because of a new deadline.

---

So long you people continue to accept this bullshit the industry will not change. It is not your responsibility to compensate for management failures. You deserve a life outside of work - which impossible in the year 2001 on 22k salary and an 80hr work week. Janitors make more than that!!! And work less hours to make it!!! You''re young so you can afford to do so, and I realize you''re doing something you really want to be doing; do you realize the company you work for is exploiting you?
PS I ass-umed that you''re working ''double-time'' on salary; if you''re working hourly about 40hrs/wk you''re making par money for recently outta HS.

...
And I''m sorry monkeyman, 58k is lot of money, but not for 7years programming experience. If you count my time in college (which I wouldn''t) I''m at 5 years. You _would be pushing 70k outside the industry as a designer or project engineer. So it''s your choice to remain in the industry for a job you prefer, but realize that you _are making significantly less. The games industry of software engineering is like the auto industry of mechanical engineering; both have a stigmatism attached to them that makes it slightly more difficult to enter other industries in the field. This is true to some extent of all industries in all fields, but it’s worse than usually for auto & games.
And it’s not a new science! It’s over forty years old now! The game industry has stagnated as the rest of the field as moved on. Granted it’s not as mature as Neurology (people have been poking brains in earnest for about 120 years now ).

…
School:
I did not learn a single thing about programming the first two years of college. I did learn a bit in the second two years; VAX & x86 asm, Delphi & C++ Builder, OpenGL, trees (It never occurred to me to branch out a linked list until the instructor wrote it on the board), and extended my knowledge of C++ (wasn’t complete, and was very light on OOD, but I knew more than when I started). Same with the math, I didn’t learn much until after Calc3 – then it started getting hard. I got my first B in a math class in differential equations; and was happy with a B in partial difeq. The problem isn’t so much the increased difficulty of the material, as the combination of increased difficulty & increased volume.
And I visited the bar frequently with my fraternity; brought the bar along more often than not. You definitely get out of it what you put into it; just because extended detailed knowledge of a subject isn’t required for the test doesn’t mean your not allowed to pursue it. I learned a lot not-about-programming in all four years.

…
And lastly, MATH IS NOT SCIENCE. IT NEVER WAS, NEVER COULD HAVE BEEN, AND NEVER WILL BE. The difference, subtle yet extreme, is the difference between theorem and theory.

[ /endrant]


Magmai Kai Holmlor
- The disgruntled & disillusioned

quote:

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Original post by Gorg

Damn right Monkey man. Almost Same thing for me.

I am just coop student(half-way through my degree) and I make a little more than 40k. I was doing way less than that, but they were impressed enough by my work to give me this nice little raise. And I will have another good raise in 4 months.

Working hard and reading a lot of books really paid off much more than school. All the strong points that my company sees in me was all derived from that "outside of school" effort. I really encourage everybody who wants a good job in programming to do the same. School won`t teach you much.

---

But I should have added that what school teaches you it teaches you well.

At the university I went to, they really showed us all the basic of programming, from hardware to high level language. It didn''t give me any "how to develop software knowlegde"(which is what I want to know) but with the base I learned, I could easely grab any advanced on pretty much any computer science subject and be able to understand it.

I never said school was useless. I just said it won''t teach you much.

Well I''m not big on the school teaching me a lot. Just about everything I''ve learned was either from books or experience, but the one thing that school did teach me that is completely indispensable and the most valuable thing to know in this industry is how to learn on my own. Because of the crappy school system I was forced to learn a lot just to have a decent final project (3rd person 3D engine from scratch using OpenGL and DirectSound) but now I can very easily learn just about anything else I want. The other thing about school is that it provides (normally) a very work-like environment should you choose to use it. Now hopefully I can get a job with these skills and my nice little engine.

Good point was made there. I have a pretty good salary for 50 hrs/week job that I do not like as much as I would like some cool gamedev job, but it compensates in terms of time (that is THE most valuable thing you have in your life) and money. We can not all drive Ferraris, but 22K... 80hrs/week... gimme a break... I had many long workdays and weekends at the office when times got tough, but I got well paid for that. Only slaves and volunteers work for free, not professional C++ programmers.

And I also have a garage-type project on my own that I really enjoy, plus I am learning gamedev stuff I like so much, plus I am improving my engeneering skills (writing specs, flows, maintaining schedules) that will help me at any programming job, all this in stress-and-deadline-free environment of my bedroom. So right now I feel I have the best of both worlds. No credits for me in the title screen, but hey, at least I feel happy every day when I sit in my BMW

-- XXX

Wow Im just looked at this thread. Lots of posts, lots of opinions.

I just wanna clear up somethings.

I have only been proghramming directx since last October. Before that was all mode 13h and BGI. That might explain the 12.50/h. Also I view the cs degree as rather important, I''m starting shool this summer now that I can afford it. I only do small Direct Draw games, basic D3D games, and a miniscule bit of DirectShow. I was talking to those in school and those not yet in school.


And I don''t work 80 hours. I work around 60 but through free-will. I''m learning an immense amount of things. My boss has gotten a license form WildTangent and I''m about to start that.
This job is not that great of an achievement i realize, but its a rather large stepping stone.(NOTE:: stay away from WildTangent unless you are seriously interested and are willing to pay a LARGE licensing fee. personally i think its too extreme.)






Robert Warden
Lasershot Shooting Simulations