Barnes link
Book: "Emergence in Games"
November 07, 2007 10:06 AM
Anyone know anything about the book, "Emergence in Games" by Penny Sweetser? It hasn't been released yet, but I got an email from the publisher about it. I'm thinking of picking it up but I don't know much about the author. What about Penny? I see she worked on "Total War II" - which I haven't played yet either. Good stuff?
Barnes link
Barnes link
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC
Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-founder and 10 year advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI
Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"
220
November 07, 2007 02:09 PM
Just read the synopsis:
I hope the whole book isnt based on that ridiculous assumption. And whats with the fractal? Doesnt look serious.
As for Total war... I LOVE the series. I have bought every game and expansion since Shogun: Total war. The gameplay is excellent, but the AI sucks, it barely works. You will continuously see stupid behaviors like an attacking AI army sitting on its ass for the whole duration of the battle, and allied countries are virtually guaranteed to backstab you, even (and especially) if that dooms them. Armies will spend their entire turn spliting and merging again... etc, etc, etc. Total war = good stuff, except for the AI.
Anyway, I may be wrong and the book may be an excellent read, but it seems like more hype than flesh to me.
Quote:
[...] However, current methods of game design do not allow for anything other than pre-scripted player exchanges and static objects and environments.
I hope the whole book isnt based on that ridiculous assumption. And whats with the fractal? Doesnt look serious.
As for Total war... I LOVE the series. I have bought every game and expansion since Shogun: Total war. The gameplay is excellent, but the AI sucks, it barely works. You will continuously see stupid behaviors like an attacking AI army sitting on its ass for the whole duration of the battle, and allied countries are virtually guaranteed to backstab you, even (and especially) if that dooms them. Armies will spend their entire turn spliting and merging again... etc, etc, etc. Total war = good stuff, except for the AI.
Anyway, I may be wrong and the book may be an excellent read, but it seems like more hype than flesh to me.
November 07, 2007 02:19 PM
Of course, that leads to another possible educational experience. If she is responsible for the sub-par (to be nice) AI, then the book would potentially expose her mindset and techniques that led to that. Kinda like the negative side of post-mortems... just unintentional.
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC
Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-founder and 10 year advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI
Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"
864
November 07, 2007 08:57 PM
I met Penny a few years back at AGDC... nice girl... she is one of the few people in Australia specialising in game AI, although her research has a particularly A-Life bent. This book is, from my understanding, based upon her PhD and post-doc research in combining influence mapping and cellular automata techniques in game environments to produce novel and changing responses to tactical and strategic decision problems. I personally wouldn't discount her work out of hand, however I do accept that the relevance to current gaming technologies and design approaches is a little thin.
My advice... pick up the book off the bookshelf, take a look through it and if it looks interesting, or looks like it might spark some ideas for you, buy it. If you can't find it in the bookshop... well, it's a gamble. ;)
I think I'll be asking my publisher rep for an evaluation copy. There are *some* benefits to being an academic! ;)
My advice... pick up the book off the bookshelf, take a look through it and if it looks interesting, or looks like it might spark some ideas for you, buy it. If you can't find it in the bookshop... well, it's a gamble. ;)
I think I'll be asking my publisher rep for an evaluation copy. There are *some* benefits to being an academic! ;)
November 08, 2007 11:18 AM
I only just now noticed that she has written 4 articles for the AI Wisdom series. They weren't bad, I suppose.
I believe I may get the book just to see what she has to say. I'm always interested in emergence.
I believe I may get the book just to see what she has to say. I'm always interested in emergence.
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC
Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-founder and 10 year advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI
Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"
138
November 08, 2007 06:13 PM
InnocuousFox
I'm interested in emergence too. Could you give a definition of this term as you understand it?
I'm interested in emergence too. Could you give a definition of this term as you understand it?
November 08, 2007 06:41 PM
Quote: Original post by Ath
InnocuousFox
I'm interested in emergence too. Could you give a definition of this term as you understand it?
Giving agents discrete actions on a small scale that end up combining into things you didn't really plan on.
More on Wikipedia
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC
Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-founder and 10 year advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI
Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"
864
November 09, 2007 01:12 AM
Hehe...not THIS discussion again... I'm staying out of it this time... last time it just got UGLY! ;)
138
November 09, 2007 07:44 AM
Thank you, InnocuousFox. Now tell me pls, what is the most considerable example of artificial computational emergence do you know? I mean any kind of working agent system where agent control systems are evaluating to show new and sensible behavior. Is there something impressed you?
And another question. Seems like there is posible to realize geometrical form evaluating by the emergence way. In opposite to control systems emergence. Are there any examples of this kind of emergence?
I'm asking because I have a posibility to read russian books about artificial evolution and emergence. They are reach theoretically, and very interesting, but I don't see any relevant practical realizations of these ideas in modern russian ai-community. Maybe you can point any examples in english speaking ai-sphere?
And another question. Seems like there is posible to realize geometrical form evaluating by the emergence way. In opposite to control systems emergence. Are there any examples of this kind of emergence?
I'm asking because I have a posibility to read russian books about artificial evolution and emergence. They are reach theoretically, and very interesting, but I don't see any relevant practical realizations of these ideas in modern russian ai-community. Maybe you can point any examples in english speaking ai-sphere?
November 09, 2007 10:57 AM
Quote: Original post by Timkin
Hehe...not THIS discussion again... I'm staying out of it this time... last time it just got UGLY! ;)
And what discussion is that, sir?
Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm LLC
Professional consultant on game AI, mathematical modeling, simulation modeling
Co-founder and 10 year advisor of the GDC AI Summit
Author of the book, Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI
Blogs I write:
IA News - What's happening at IA | IA on AI - AI news and notes | Post-Play'em - Observations on AI of games I play
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"
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