It seems recently game businesses are starting to find potential by setting up outsourcing offices in China. Everyone knows that China is a communistic nation, and computer hardware companies, toy factories, and others produce many things in China, alot of things you buy say "Made in China". My brother when he was younger got a Winnie the Pooh stuffed animal...who apparently came from China. Now games recently are having model, texture, and animation outsourcing done in China also. What I find interesting to all is that doing research...this will come at a slow pace for the gaming industry. Even though many other industries mentioned are being produced like hot cakes in Chinese production facilities. China only has a few trade schools or universities that teach even the basics to compete in the gaming industry. Even though communist countries like North Korea and China have game companies, most of these are outlets for mmo development on a balance of outsourcing and few original properties for their own country, which most consumers are at least college age. Another thing is only two or three certified businessmen in China who can officially train workers in the knowledge of 3D programs such as Maya. I like to say that China is a very potential source for game development, but is it going too slow for other potential investors?

Read This thread from last week for a basic discussion on outsourcing generally.

I only saw one question in your post, "I like to say that China is a very potential source for game development, but is it going too slow for other potential investors?"

What exactly do you mean by that?

Who are these "potential investors"? Very few people "invest" in game development, and those that do almost always go for the publicly held giants or the very large studios. The other (relatively minor) sources of investors are the publishers who front money for small studios, and those family members willing to make the super-ultra-mega-risky investment helping a relative who already programs games, and their experienced friends, to start their own studio.

Also, when you ask, "is it going to slow," I have to ask, is WHAT going too slow? Is the potential growing too slow? Are the number of studios developing too slow? Are the number of skilled workers who are able to produce games that fit the Western view (ie: daughters don't wear what looks like a wedding dress to a funeral) and speak English ("All Your Base") not growing fast enough?

I mean investors who put money into developing their businesses into China. Also I mean by too slow, as in only a few studios in China can produce game works, because of the slow rate of Chinese individuals who are able to compete with the Western gaming market.

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Original post by BrioCyrain I mean investors who put money into developing their businesses into China.

Game studies have an extremely high business failure rate. It is not a wise investment generally.

The exception to the bad investment rule is if you have a large group of experienced developers who have worked together, understand the business and technical aspects, and who break off at the same time to start a new company.

It is generally a foolish investment to fund a startup game development company.

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Also I mean by too slow, as in only a few studios in China can produce game works, because of the slow rate of Chinese individuals who are able to compete with the Western gaming market.

I don't believe that is the reason.


Consider the attitude of the government toward computer use. Every Online game that is permitted to go through the Great Firewall must have specific restrictions. The player must use the Government issued ID. When an individual is online for more than three hours (the State said it is because that is the maximum time required for a competition game of Go) the software must prompt them to "quit playing and go get some exercise". If they continue, the game must (again, required by law) cut their points by half. If they continue past five hours, all online games must remove all points.

Consider also that depictions of violence are strongly discouraged, and that any material considered "obscene" or "polically subversive" is illegal. The developers of such software face imprisonment or death.

Consider that most "normal" games such as EA's "Need For Speed" (which includes ditching the cops and women in miniskirts and midriff shirts) is restricted but not illegal for adults.

World of Warcraft was modified to remove skeletons, and demanded other changes to "promote a healthy and harmonious online game environment". Command and Conquer Generals, Hearts of Iron, and others are banned outright for "damaging the Chinese army's image". Even Sega's Football Manager is banned in the country for political subversion.

Is it really surprising to you that such an environment would be a deterring influence to game development?



Aside from the political problems, the population doesn't support it. Most game studios have their roots in a specific population. They typically have two or more techincal colleges to draw from. From what I can see on the game dev map, every listed node is surronded by at least two colleges or universities within 50 miles. With the exception of the major metro areas, you don't find that environment in China. Unfortunatly those are precisely the areas that the "investors" (ie: cheap labor hunters) want to avoid, because they are expensive areas to do business.

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Original post by BrioCyrain Even though communist countries like North Korea and China have game companies, most of these are outlets for mmo development on a balance of outsourcing and few original properties for their own country, which most consumers are at least college age.

I think you are confusing China and North Korea with South Korea. South Korea is very different and has its own thriving game industry. It also does a lot of animation outsourcing.

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Original post by Vorpy Quote: Original post by BrioCyrain Even though communist countries like North Korea and China have game companies, most of these are outlets for mmo development on a balance of outsourcing and few original properties for their own country, which most consumers are at least college age. I think you are confusing China and North Korea with South Korea. South Korea is very different and has its own thriving game industry. It also does a lot of animation outsourcing.

The original poster was correct in that China has studios.

Hong Kong, now a part of China, lives in a completely different world than the Mainland. There are many businesses that thrive there, including game studios.

Mainland China does have a few game studios. Most of these are part of major global global companies (The9, EA, Ubisoft, Vivendi Games, NC Soft, etc.) and all of them are heavily regulated by the State.

China is facing a growing problem of Internet addiction through MMOs. There is a lot of speculation that this is due to the government's heavy hand on all other aspects of their lives, including restrictions on all other 'net access.


North Korea, though, is a black hole for all things technical. You might find some people there who make flight simulators or other war games for the government, but otherwise you won't find any game development.

Searching for North Korea in software news, you can learn that their government claimed to employ 600 people for computer warfare in late 2005, which corresponds to their 2001 announcement they were empowering their nation to be a great IT power by training 600 students in after-hour programming schools. [looksaround]

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Original post by frob Mainland China does have a few game studios. Most of these are part of major global global companies (The9, EA, Ubisoft, Vivendi Games, NC Soft, etc.) and all of them are heavily regulated by the State.

They have censorship nonsense that's pretty specific, but that goes for other companies outside that wants to sell to China as well (FIFA Worldcup, for example, needed to remove the World Globe UI selection widget, because it showed Taiwan as a separate entity). It maps to swastikas and red blood in Germany, I suppose.

There's also the issue about online use that Frob pointed out, basically trying to reduce your maximum online time in any one game.

Apart from that, China's regulators don't deal directly with the companies in question.. it's not as if a Secret Police commissary is sitting in their offices and telling them to give bigger cod-pieces to Chinese FIFA players.

Having said that, the original poster is a highschool kid, so exactly what he's been doing related to outsourcing to china is anyone's guess. I suppose it's just another aspect of Nativism that's being peddled pretty heavily.

In addition to the big companies that Frob mentioned (mostly in the Shanghai region), there's a pretty lively Korean/Chinese development community funded from South Korea operating on the chinese side of the China/NKorea border. The population there speaks both Chinese and Korean, and it skirts the restrictions regarding how many Korean-made games can be sold in China. There's also a bunch of (mainly Art) outsourcing companies in Shenzhen and the Bejing->Shanghai strip. The available talent-pool drops rapidly as you move inland and westwards.

Allan

I don't agree. Even in the West, schools dedicated to train for game programming are rare and may not be taken seriously.

Only few companies can officially train workers with knowledge of Maya? How do you get this info? What makes school in the West "official'?

China as a developing nation will of course offer lower rate until they foster some sizeable companies. Until then, take advantage of it rather than dwell on their supposed "comunist" nature.

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Original post by rumble I don't agree. Even in the West, schools dedicated to train for game programming are rare and may not be taken seriously.

What exactly do you disagree with? Is it the statement: "The available talent-pool drops rapidly as you move inland and westwards"? He isn't referring to game schools, but to the talent pool. Huge difference.

I'm assuming you aren't too familiar with China, its politics, nor its socioeconomic situation.

Once you leave the coast and the few main rivers, the people there are very poor. There is very little advanced technical education for the inland population.

-= BEGIN HISTORY LESSON =-

This wasn't always the case. In the early 1800s (about 200 years ago) they were more advanced than most of the world, technologically. There were some big internal conflicts that were spurred on by external governments around the globe that stalled them entering the industrial age. After the seven superpowers at the time tried to carve up China, they entered a civil war (in between the two World Wars). They had another major war with Japan, leading in to WWII. After things settled down again, they had some big internal political wars and a major famine, combined killing off around 20 million people.

They tried many times to get back their former grandeur. Adopting Communism was an attempt at helping the rural areas. The Great Leap Forward was an attempt to move to a post-industrialized nation (but instead brought famine and martial law). Mao's Cultural Revolution in the '60s and '70s managed to purge most of the intellectuals from the nation.

It wasn't until the 1980s (when many of the people on the board were born) that China began to foster educational and intellectual growth in the citizenry.

Even then, events like the Tiananmen Square Massacre in '89 revealed how the government still attacked and killed students and intellectuals who were too close to Western ideas.

-= END HISTORY LESSON =-

Because of these historical reasons, by the time you've move west enough to reach the Tibet Province or Mongolian Uplands the people are universally poor. They don't even have clean water or adequate sanitation. There are many anti-poverty projects continuously going on in western China.

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Only few companies can officially train workers with knowledge of Maya? How do you get this info? What makes school in the West "official'?

It has nothing to do with schools being "official". It has everything to do with a talent pool of educated workers who have access to skilled mentors.

Digital artistry is a skilled trade. Although attending a school is important, it is also important to work closely with others already experienced in the trade.

Western China is fighting poverty - when people are dreaming about surviving the winter they aren't learning to develop software.

Inland China has neither the technical schools nor the experienced populations, although they are slowly gaining them.

The cities along the inland rivers and east coast have technical schools to fuel software development. They also have an ever-growing pool of experienced technical people who can help guide newcomers through the craft.

The return of Hong Kong in 1997 was a huge change for the mainland eastern cities. I had a close friend living there at the time of the transition, and he said it was just amazing to watch the change in the SEZ. I can only imagine that there was a similar transition right around the SEZ by those who were close enough to travel to it.

That one event is still rippling through the country, increasing both the wealth and education of the entire nation.

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China as a developing nation will of course offer lower rate until they foster some sizeable companies. Until then, take advantage of it rather than dwell on their supposed "comunist" nature.

If you consider the speed of government, China is moving very rapidly.

The government itself is slowing the growth of technology and education. I remember watching broadcasts from Tiananmen Square in '89. I couldn't imagine how a nation -- even China -- could kill students for the crime of learning about the rest of the world. That's still fresh in many people's minds, as are more recent imprisonments and executions for those who diverge too far from the government's views.


Further, consider The Great Firewall itself, which makes it clear that the government doesn't want foreign technology businesses to flourish. Some of the hatred for Western nations is well founded. I mean, nine countries including the US, England, Russia, Germany, and Portugal tried to turn the nation into colonial splinters. The government has valid reasons for trying to stall all foreign growth.


No, the issue is not that global companies don't want to grow faster in China. Global companies aren't growing faster in mainland China because of China itself.

I thought I made that clear in my earlier post when I explained that the internal political situation is deterring the growth, not the external factors. The external factors are forcing the growth at a dangerously accelerated rate.

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Even then, events like the Tiananmen Square Massacre in '89 revealed how the government still attacked and killed students and intellectuals who were too close to Western ideas.

I wouldn't call it a masacre. There are other accounts of how the incident happened.

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Because of these historical reasons, by the time you've move west enough to reach the Tibet Province or Mongolian Uplands the people are universally poor. They don't even have clean water or adequate sanitation. There are many anti-poverty projects continuously going on in western China.

Yes, ethnic minorities are more likely to be below the poverty line due to many factors.

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It has nothing to do with schools being "official". It has everything to do with a talent pool of educated workers who have access to skilled mentors. Digital artistry is a skilled trade. Although attending a school is important, it is also important to work closely with others already experienced in the trade.

Agreed. I was questioning the OP if there is really an official certification process.

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Western China is fighting poverty - when people are dreaming about surviving the winter they aren't learning to develop software.

Might these people be refering to the Tibetan, Mongolian ethnic minorities in the Western regions? Nowadays the pockets of poverty seem to be usually limited to minories from what I have read.

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Inland China has neither the technical schools nor the experienced populations, although they are slowly gaining them. The cities along the inland rivers and east coast have technical schools to fuel software development. They also have an ever-growing pool of experienced technical people who can help guide newcomers through the craft.

That is expected. Similarly I wouldn't expect some central US states to rival Silicon Valley either.

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The return of Hong Kong in 1997 was a huge change for the mainland eastern cities. I had a close friend living there at the time of the transition, and he said it was just amazing to watch the change in the SEZ. I can only imagine that there was a similar transition right around the SEZ by those who were close enough to travel to it. That one event is still rippling through the country, increasing both the wealth and education of the entire nation.

Hmm, I m tempted to say too much credit is attributed. WTO seem to matter much more.

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The government itself is slowing the growth of technology and education. I remember watching broadcasts from Tiananmen Square in '89. I couldn't imagine how a nation -- even China -- could kill students for the crime of learning about the rest of the world. That's still fresh in many people's minds, as are more recent imprisonments and executions for those who diverge too far from the government's views.

Other than your view point, some reports claim the students were being manipulated, were too greedy in their demands, or died not by being killed but from being on forced hunger strike or trampled under stampede.

Overall it was an event to express dissatisfaction with corruption and inflation rather than a straight demand for democracy, which the students blindly associated with wealth/advancement.

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Further, consider The Great Firewall itself, which makes it clear that the government doesn't want foreign technology businesses to flourish. Some of the hatred for Western nations is well founded. I mean, nine countries including the US, England, Russia, Germany, and Portugal tried to turn the nation into colonial splinters. The government has valid reasons for trying to stall all foreign growth.

I thought it is mostly for censorship, and of course preventing foreign propaganda machines from influencing/manipulating the populace.

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No, the issue is not that global companies don't want to grow faster in China. Global companies aren't growing faster in mainland China because of China itself. I thought I made that clear in my earlier post when I explained that the internal political situation is deterring the growth, not the external factors. The external factors are forcing the growth at a dangerously accelerated rate.

Sorry my first post was for the OP and I didn't read yours.