yes those wretched MMORPGs get a lot of talk, in theory they are a good genre (well set of genres) but all current implementations are horrible. I wouldn''t say that they have much larger communities, I think they are actually about equal or a little larger, it is just that they are newer and so they haven''t had as much of the retirement effect. When games tend to get old people stop playing, maybe moving to a new game maybe just catching up with whatever it was they did before. That stage hasn''t hit MMs yet, maybe it never will since the people trapped in those evil machines seem to be oblivious. It is hard to escape. Hmm better stop now before this turns into a ten page rant about the nature of evil.

But a lot of the RPG talk is single player, since so much of it seems to deal with story and idealized NPC AI, both of which are inherently single player topics.

I agree with the story part (hence why I am trying to fix up Non-Linear-Events Web program event and story creator to deal with MMO stories and quests) but as for the AI, well, I am of the mind that the more computers you have hooked up to a server, the more computer power you have for controlling NPCs... So why not harness it?

So you were half right, but most of us here tend to talk about Character interactions with NPCs and ALSO players... PKing is one of the big issues that pops up regularly, and it is most definitely NOT single player (Unless you are stupid enough to kill yourself )

Anyway... Enough of this ranting about the inherent evils of current RPG design... It su><0rs and we are trying to do something about it

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

RPGs are essentially for the insecure and depressed. That''s why the player feels a sense of accomplishment when they win.

Ever take a good look at an ad for a medieval RPG where a raging knight is fighting a dragon? Take a good look at his sword. Ever notice how RPG artists tend to make the sword really "special"? They give the blade extra thick with plenty of niches and cracks, and make the handle all screwed up. Also notice the knight''s facial expression: very, very angry. It never fails.

If you''ve ever taken a course in Psychology, you''d see that that derives from the artist''s insecurity and is meant to intice the possible player who sees it by targetting his insecurity. An RPG is meant to target every nook and cranny of the depressed minds of teenagers.

It is better to FACE reality rather than to face fantasy. Reality is all around you, and fantasy is just a psychological interpretation of reality. Face the latter, and you''ll only be facing what you THINK is real and not what IS real.

If you ask me, it''s better to make games that are just fun, and not games that target the young, human psyche. But that''s just me.

Um... I play fantasy for FUN... So why start saying that it is for the clinically depressed? My sister suffers from depression and she doesn''t even like computers. Hell... My friends are depressed and they don''t play RPGs... I know some of the happiest most stable people who prefer RPGs to playing any other genre. Why not pretend to be someone else for a while and stop being trigger happy in Quake <insert huge number here> or SOF.

RPGs are cool and they rule, so stop getting shitty that a genre is popular with the thinkers.

*dwarfsoft throws cold water on himself*

Yeah! And you stole my friends Nick!

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

Someguy''s post is pretty much flamebait, but I''ll leave it in for a while. Just be careful to refute the points intelligently, and do not resort to name calling.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

Sorry MKV... I know I did get a bit hot under the collar there... I''m all good now

quote: Original post by Some Guy
RPGs are essentially for the insecure and depressed. That''s why the player feels a sense of accomplishment when they win.

I don''t play to win. I play to learn. I play to explore. How much undescovered land is there in this world? Fortunately, fantasy allows new places to go and new cultures to see. Ahh.. what a holiday in the Land of Aal

quote: Ever take a good look at an ad for a medieval RPG where a raging knight is fighting a dragon? Take a good look at his sword. Ever notice how RPG artists tend to make the sword really "special"? They give the blade extra thick with plenty of niches and cracks, and make the handle all screwed up. Also notice the knight''s facial expression: very, very angry. It never fails.

Mmmm... good art is always a masterpeice to some and a defilement to others. Broad minded people tend to accept art at face value and as something more deep looking for meaning, whereas the people who believe it is defilement really just look too hard or not at all. Personal preference is fine, but I enjoy seeing the dragon more than the slayer. Funny that I would rather be friends with a dragon than kill it... Does that mean that I am weirder than those who powertrip on Killing it or more normal?

quote: If you''ve ever taken a course in Psychology, you''d see that that derives from the artist''s insecurity and is meant to intice the possible player who sees it by targetting his insecurity. An RPG is meant to target every nook and cranny of the depressed minds of teenagers.

Ah, but an RPG is meant to target the deepest depths of our desires. Our wants to descover the undescovered and learn the unlearnable. I would love to be able to light a candle with the blink of an eye, but unfortunately this is just for the realms of fantasy and also for RPGs.

And who is to say that FPSs aren''t targetting those who are screwed in the head? I realise that they don''t cause shootings, nor teach people to shoot, but they are as much aimed at teenagers too. Most games are, because this is the age group that it sells to. It has nothing to do with how weak a person is, it is all up to personal taste.

quote: It is better to FACE reality rather than to face fantasy. Reality is all around you, and fantasy is just a psychological interpretation of reality. Face the latter, and you''ll only be facing what you THINK is real and not what IS real.

Some games aren''t fantasy. Some are Sci-fi and others are even present day. If you didn''t want to face a game then why are you on this board? We are here to further the development of games as a whole, and RPGs are a major part of the industry (well, there are more of them out there than there are breeding rabbits) so why start discrediting a genre because of your petty delusions that it is preying on deprived kids? I face reality every day. I also play games as well.

quote: If you ask me, it''s better to make games that are just fun, and not games that target the young, human psyche. But that''s just me.

All games target a part of the psyche... Otherwise they wouldn''t sell. Then you would just have a bit of software that nobody plays. Entertainment is a part of the psyche so in that one sentence you have managed to contradict yourself

Anyway... I have had enough of picking this to pieces, and please no more flamebait. Someone might snap

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

actually I thought of posting something along the lines of what someguy said... although i wouldn´t put it quite like that.

Is there some truth to it? That message-board people are the same guys who play RPGs? Insecure, not happy with their lives, too scared to actually go out an change something for themselves?

not really my intention to fuel the flames, but that question has been on my mind for some time...
I wont go into the psychology sector, as there´s no reasonable argumentation possible that RPGs influence young minds, whilst other games do not.
BTW: someguy, a psychology course does not qualifiy you to make such statements... imo the whole "how computer games influence the minds of kids" debate has been overdone already, a year ago /(the whole violence thing) no paper and no tv channel could do without it... and about all the "real" psychologists i heard said that no link could be conclusively proven...

quote: Original post by Wavinator

Really? So what would your opinion be of an open ended sci-fi game with no real end goal where you control one person / vehicle / spaceship while managing a group through action, strategy, trade, conversation, and stealth?

Sometimes, you can free your mind so much that no one knows what the hell you''re talking about anymore...

Sounds like Galileo to me



- Kaijin

The student who is never required to do what he cannot do never does what he can do. - John Stuart Mill

quote: Original post by dwarfsoft
there is always the problem that in an open ended game that the player doesn''t have a goal to strive for. This would seriously impact on the fun element and the player would quickly leave the game...

I agree. An open ended game could be fun, but you have to be careful. If the player can''t decide what to do they might get bored. I read a article about Black & White (on gamespot I think) and they mentioned that B&W didn''t have a story for a long time. In the end they added tasks or quests to give the player some guidence. I haven''t played B&W yet, but it sounds like they created a fairly open ended game, but added some structure to keep it fun.



--
Todd
http://www.3dcgi.com/

quote: Original post by Some Guy
RPGs are essentially for the insecure and depressed. That''s why the player feels a sense of accomplishment when they win.

That''s a pretty broad statement and totally wrong. Most games, in real life and on the computer, have a goal of winning. I like RPGs, but I also like racing games and I try to win. People play against each other on Quake servers and the goal is to win. I just got home from playing golf where I tried to win. I lost so now I''m depressed. Hmm. I''m depressed and I like RPGs ... maybe you''re right after all.

quote: Ever take a good look at an ad for a medieval RPG where a raging knight is fighting a dragon? Take a good look at his sword. Ever notice how RPG artists tend to make the sword really "special"? They give the blade extra thick with plenty of niches and cracks, and make the handle all screwed up. Also notice the knight''s facial expression: very, very angry. It never fails.

I''d be angry if I had to fight a dragon.

quote: If you''ve ever taken a course in Psychology, you''d see that that derives from the artist''s insecurity and is meant to intice the possible player who sees it by targetting his insecurity. An RPG is meant to target every nook and cranny of the depressed minds of teenagers.

So are all artists insecure or do they only hire insecure artists to draw RPG covers? Also, I''m not a teenager, but I still like RPGs.

quote: It is better to FACE reality rather than to face fantasy. Reality is all around you, and fantasy is just a psychological interpretation of reality. Face the latter, and you''ll only be facing what you THINK is real and not what IS real.

Then why play computer games at all? They''re not real. Maybe because I can''t fight in real life like in the computer or because I can''t afford to buy a McLaren F1 and rent a race track.

quote: If you ask me, it''s better to make games that are just fun, and not games that target the young, human psyche. But that''s just me.

I imagine most game designers create games that they personally think are fun, so everyone has that goal. And most game designers are not teenagers. At least not game designers that actually sell games.



--
Todd
http://www.3dcgi.com/