I'm particularly interested (from a game design point of view) in exploring the ways in which games can provide not just visceral, adrenaline-pumping entertainment, but also to really make the player question themselves, or at least the character they're playing as. We get a bit of this in RPGs already - for example, Fable. But even there, it's still very little - and in other genres there's almost none. I reckon it would be possible to have a blood-pumping FPS that was nevertheless thought-provoking. What if over the course of the game you built up an emotional attachment to a comrade, and then were faced with a decision where either you let your friend die, or followed the line of duty? In fact, what would be really cool is if we had an FPS where the main character doesn't get away at the last minute - instead he or she sacrifices themselves to end it all. Maybe less potential for sequels, but definitely more dramatic. That's not to say that there's not plenty of room for simpler, straight forward fun games like Halo. But what else could you do with an FPS? And what else could we do with other genres? If you're interested in these ideas, perhaps you'd like to check out my blog post, Think with games. Yes, I know, it's a bit of a shameless plug. But I really am interested to hear what people on this site have to say. Looking forward to seeing you over there, if you do choose to go. Otherwise, feel free just to discuss here.

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Original post by Story Weaver We get a bit of this in RPGs already - for example, Fable. But even there, it's still very little - and in other genres there's almost none. I reckon it would be possible to have a blood-pumping FPS that was nevertheless thought-provoking. What if over the course of the game you built up an emotional attachment to a comrade, and then were faced with a decision where either you let your friend die, or followed the line of duty? In fact, what would be really cool is if we had an FPS where the main character doesn't get away at the last minute - instead he or she sacrifices themselves to end it all. Maybe less potential for sequels, but definitely more dramatic.

What I loved about Twilight Princess is that it's a game that questions itself on certain occasions, and realizes that its target audience is now grown up, for the most part. So Link has a female companion. Is any thought given to that? Hmm, what could be the side effects of this.... And what of the the hinted relationship between the big-breasted lady at the bar and the minister in Kakariko Village? Hmm... And what about this young boy who is willing to sacrifice himself (just as you said) to save a girl's young life from an orcish monster? And what about that monster? Just watch how he changes throughout the course of the game.

What a great game.


There are plenty of ways to make a game provoke thought. It's interesting, I just got done watching the movie, The Negotiator. The entire film is, implicitly, like one big poker game, and all the players involved are calling each other's bluff and laying their cards on the table. In this fashion, the result is a compelling, Hollywood movie that explores the eternal game of crooked, amoral human warfare (also known as negotiation). There is absolutely no reason why a game couldn't do just the same.


2 cents.

As long as thought provoking does not involve only guilt.

Personally, I don't want to feel extreme guilt in a game. I play to have fun.

As far as thought-provoking goes, it depends on the realism of the character interactions.
If an npc is giving a thought-provoking monolouge, and your off killing rabbits, it kills the moment. It's difficult to make AI act human enough to be believable. Character development (today) is done in cutscenes, because the developers can control what will be said, and more importantly, what you the player will not do.

Actually, Neverwinter Nights 2 didn't exactly end well for the party. It wasn't very thought-provoking, though. Instead the whole thing felt more like RP candy, and it still railroaded you through the story in a specific way.

I was thinking about a game in the D&D universe that instead dealt with the nature of the Outer Planes themselves, those infinite realms defined only by the differences in alignment (chaos, law, good, evil, neutrality and all the combos). It seems to me even the gods themselves can't alter those borders, since alignment determines them. With so many games nowadays that focus on your abilities and powers, it would be a nice change of pace to play a game that somehow involves something that even the gods are at the mercy of, but not make that plot direction obvious in the beginning. Start the player out making the options for powers and abilities wide open, but later make it clear that their choices of alignment have very significant consequences, regardless of their powers.

That might turn off some players, but I would find that kind of thing engaging. I'd be encouraged to play through multiple times trying out all the possibilities. It would also reawaken the abandoned mantra that regardless of your powers, there is always something bigger than you.

To help reinforce the concept, and provide more roleplaying, it could offer you the chance to make your chosen alignment obvious to some but hidden to others, and even reinforce your alignment or change it based on your actions.

Thought-provoking gameplay is largely going to be in the writing. The setting has to be believable, not in the realistic sense, but in the sense that it has internal coherency and doesn't abuse its relationship with the player (continually breaking the fourth wall, for example, has a tendency to force the player to hold the storyline at arm's length). And once you have a strong setting, you need a story in that setting, and that story has to be well-written and different. Think about novels that were thought-provoking, and note how they were different from "standard" novels in the genre. The same thing goes for games. We get used to certain tropes in stories and in games; if you don't break the mold, then you aren't going to provoke anything special from your players. For example, these days it's practically expected that the final boss of a game have multiple forms; we feel ripped-off if he doesn't. But the first time that you discovered that the boss you thought you just killed had come back? I bet it had a lot more of an impact. Similarly, I know plenty of people who play "spot the romantic interest" and "spot the traitor" when they play RPGs; even if they don't know when the hero will kiss the girl or the erstwhile ally will stab the party in the back, they know that it'll happen sometime, because it almost always does. Thus, when it does occur, it loses a lot of its impact. You want to avoid that if you possibly can.

So, be crafty, be original, and surprise your players. Engross them in your world, and keep them from expecting what you have in store, without making them regret playing the game afterwards. And good luck.

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Original post by Waverider I was thinking about a game in the D&D universe that instead dealt with the nature of the Outer Planes themselves, those infinite realms defined only by the differences in alignment (chaos, law, good, evil, neutrality and all the combos). It seems to me even the gods themselves can't alter those borders, since alignment determines them. With so many games nowadays that focus on your abilities and powers, it would be a nice change of pace to play a game that somehow involves something that even the gods are at the mercy of, but not make that plot direction obvious in the beginning. Start the player out making the options for powers and abilities wide open, but later make it clear that their choices of alignment have very significant consequences, regardless of their powers.

You just described Planescsape: Torment, which is one of my favorite games of all times, and is widely regarded by everyone who's played it as one of the most thought-provoking and philosophical RPG's ever written. You should definitely check it out; its graphics might be horribly dated by now, but if you can look beyond that and play it for the story and atmosphere, you will find an incredible game.

This can be done easy enough through gameplay, not just cut-scenes.

A simple example would be haveing the players play Gahndai, out to reclaim your country from the British.

At anytime the player could instigate a physical revolt. Inspire the poor population to raise arms against the British in a largely futile attempt to overthrow superior forces...but there is a chance, even a slim one, that doing this may eventualy succeed.

Or the player could use diplomicy to build mytardom points, effectively becomeing that double edged sword that the british would want gone, but can't get rid of because your influce with alies makes it undesireable. And with this stance you can inspire the peaceful protesting that lead to the British surrendering control.

Of course the "correct" choice is the far more difficult one...and even following this path, the out and out war choice could be made at anytime...but doing so forever prevents a peaceful resolution.

And in all honesty, the D&D alignment scale is going to work against such thought provokeing games. Real world isn't black and white. Even Hitler had shades of grey, despite all the evil he did, pulling a nation out of economic dispair is useualy a good thing.

Thought-provoking gameplay will come from involving the player in moral choices, not reading about or watching characters make decisions, but actually constructing scenarios which provide the experience of moral decision-making and their consequences to the player.

Thought-provoking games like Planescape Torment cheat because everything that is thought-provoking in it has to do with the writing. It is not the way.

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Original post by JimDaniel Thought-provoking gameplay will come from involving the player in moral choices, not reading about or watching characters make decisions, but actually constructing scenarios which provide the experience of moral decision-making and their consequences to the player. Thought-provoking games like Planescape Torment cheat because everything that is thought-provoking in it has to do with the writing. It is not the way.

I'd have to disagree. Maybe I'm just a fanboy, but I think Torment did a pretty good job of letting you make moral and philosophical decisions. You had the option of choosing which faction to join, and the factions of Planescape are largely just schools of philosophical/religious thought. You also had a lot of alignment decisions that affected the outcome of the story in various parts.

Certainly, any game could always have more of whatever you're looking for, but the more quantity you try to add the more quality usually suffers. Especially in the case of text in dialogue trees. I can't think of a game I've played that offered more legitimate philosophical and moral debate to a player than Torment did.

Original post by makeshiftwings

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Fair enough. For me, the decisions in PT felt arbitrary, thought I admit they had consequences. I don't know, there is some kind of disconnection that happens when everything you express in the game is fully written out for you. In these cases, I feel I'm not making choices based on what "I" would do, but instead are made based on whatever role I choose to play. For that reason there is some distance emotionally.

I guess what I'm looking for is to be so rapt in the moral choices presented to me that it no longer becomes a decision I make on behalf of an avatar, the Nameless One in this case, but my own choices as a human being.

I think once a game can accomplish that we will be on to some great things.