This is a discussion. So no need to flip out and start on the copyright and trademark rants. With that being said. I wish Megaman was more versatile and fluid. As opposed to the whole run left and right and can only attack enemies with his blaster, I want him to dropkick a helmethead, punch a boss, or setup some sort of melee and energy blaster combo on an enemy. I don't see why I'm forced to have one player on a screen. I don't want to have to search and find upgrades for double-jumps, air & ground dashes, multiple mega-shots, and radar. Give me that to me from the start. Make me Megaman, not the guy with the blue rubber suit. Megaman and the 2D side scrolling platformer doesn't have to have simple or boring enemies. What happened to challenging and fun?

I suspect that the particular problem that Megaman has is that back in the days of the NES, most protagonists simply didn't have that kind of flexibility. With only a D-pad and two main buttons (and two inconvenient buttons), the ability to jump, shoot, and do a melee attack would have required some serious UI work. Mind you, games like Castlevania managed it; it wasn't impossible. But it's not what Megaman did. Then Capcom decided that they'd struck on a winning formula and decided to keep it. They churned out six games - six - for the NES, using almost identical gameplay, and people loved it! At this point, sure, Megaman could do more, but would he then still be Megaman?

This isn't to say that another game couldn't take the genre in a new direction. It sounds to me like you're talking, in the beginning of the second paragraph, about a kind of 2D Devil May Cry game, where the player has access to ranged and melee attacks, as well as a variety of different mobility techniques. I've often considered that kind of gameplay, but I've been put off it largely because I'm more interested in detailed environments, and it seems to me like trying to have a complex combat engine which also allows for detailed environments would be rather tricky to do (most DMC combat takes place in a more-or-less flat arena, corrodor, or room).

As far as seeking out upgrades, Megaman is all about upgrades. You get an upgrade every time you beat a boss! Every time you get more powerful, you get a little surge of happiness; it's the whole regular-rewards thing in action. This isn't to say that you should be a worthless klutz at the beginning of the game, but most games these days recognize the value in increasing the player's abilities gradually through the game. This also, incidentally, allows the designers to gradually increase the complexity of gameplay. You start out with run and jump and shoot; later you learn to slide, jump off of walls, and dash, and still later do things like dash in the air, charge multiple weapons, and so on. Trying to absorb all of that right at the start would be hard on the players.

Finally, "simple and boring" enemies do not preclude "challenging and fun" gameplay. The gameplay is about the level, not each individual fight. You can see this most easily in 2D space shoot-em-ups like Gradius. Sure, that wing of "fighters" moving in a sine wave is downright trivial to destroy, but when you throw it in along with turrets along the edges and a giant sandworm plowing through the middle of the screen, suddenly they're a force to be reckoned with.

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Original post by Derakon I suspect that the particular problem that Megaman has is that back in the days of the NES, most protagonists simply didn't have that kind of flexibility. With only a D-pad and two main buttons (and two inconvenient buttons), the ability to jump, shoot, and do a melee attack would have required some serious UI work. Mind you, games like Castlevania managed it; it wasn't impossible. But it's not what Megaman did. Then Capcom decided that they'd struck on a winning formula and decided to keep it. They churned out six games - six - for the NES, using almost identical gameplay, and people loved it! At this point, sure, Megaman could do more, but would he then still be Megaman?

Well at the time, it was a formula that, IMO, worked for the NES and to some (albeit very successful) degree the SNES. But with the technology we have now, Megaman can still be Megaman with a few new animations can't it?

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This isn't to say that another game couldn't take the genre in a new direction. It sounds to me like you're talking, in the beginning of the second paragraph, about a kind of 2D Devil May Cry game, where the player has access to ranged and melee attacks, as well as a variety of different mobility techniques. I've often considered that kind of gameplay, but I've been put off it largely because I'm more interested in detailed environments, and it seems to me like trying to have a complex combat engine which also allows for detailed environments would be rather tricky to do (most DMC combat takes place in a more-or-less flat arena, corrodor, or room).

Well I shy away from games that you need a degree and super-human twitch to play. So complicated moves and combos through complex button-mashing aren't my aim for such game.

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As far as seeking out upgrades, Megaman is all about upgrades. You get an upgrade every time you beat a boss! Every time you get more powerful, you get a little surge of happiness; it's the whole regular-rewards thing in action. This isn't to say that you should be a worthless klutz at the beginning of the game, but most games these days recognize the value in increasing the player's abilities gradually through the game. This also, incidentally, allows the designers to gradually increase the complexity of gameplay. You start out with run and jump and shoot; later you learn to slide, jump off of walls, and dash, and still later do things like dash in the air, charge multiple weapons, and so on. Trying to absorb all of that right at the start would be hard on the players.

Megaman and upgrades! Well of course! But let's give Megaman and the players some credit. He's been getting the same upgrades for 12+ games. So why not just have him come equipped with them from the start? Players will be able to deal with all of those abilities from the start. Variety != complication.

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Finally, "simple and boring" enemies do not preclude "challenging and fun" gameplay. The gameplay is about the level, not each individual fight. You can see this most easily in 2D space shoot-em-ups like Gradius. Sure, that wing of "fighters" moving in a sine wave is downright trivial to destroy, but when you throw it in along with turrets along the edges and a giant sandworm plowing through the middle of the screen, suddenly they're a force to be reckoned with.

You make an excellent point. I was thinking of enemies that did a little more than run into you though (as far as Megaman games are concerned).

Devil May Cry isn't all that complex for a modern 3D game, and it'd be even simpler in 2D. You'd basically have simplified street fighter controls with some of the extraneous buttons mapped to things like run and shoot.

The Megaman Zero games for the Gameboy Advance essentially play like traditional Megaman games with a beamsabre. Megaman himself only does the one thing, but more recently-introduced characters tend to be more varied. Megaman ZX (for the Nintendo DS) actually gives the player five different suits (seven if you count bonus unlockables), each with their own abilities.

As far as upgrades are concerned, typically each upgrade has done a different thing. For example, the body armor upgrade in MMX1 reduced all damage by 50%, while in X2 it created a temporary forcefield when you got hit, and in X3 it gave you access to a screen-clearing attack. The helmet upgrade in X1 let you clear overhead blocks with a headbutt; in X2 it gradually restored health, and in X3 it gave you radar. And so on. Granted most of the boot upgrades after X1 gave you some form of air-dash, but oh well. Most of the upgrades were distinct from one game to the next. Similarly, in Megaman 2, the player got "weapons" that created floating platforms of various kinds; these abilities were in some ways replicated by the Rush upgrades in Megaman 3, but only in terms of purpose, as the actual mechanics were totally different.

Finally, simple enemies are good for one major reason: they ease the player into the game. Like the little critters in Metroid games that just go in circles around the terrain, they're easy to deal with and give the player a chance to acclimate themselves to aiming at moving targets. Typicallly these enemies are pretty rare outside of the introductory areas, since that's the only place where they're usually all that useful.

I've never been a big fan of the original megaman games but I loved megaman X 1-3! To be honest I never really used the upgrades I got after every boss.

However I would love better mechanics for getting around (like wall jumping) which is where I had fun. If I could switch from sword to blaster both having equally useful moves... man that would rock.

Sound like Megaman Gaiden [grin]

That's an interesting idea though. A more nimble Megaman that has on-the-fly weapon change. Good dynamic!

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Original post by Derakon Then Capcom decided that they'd struck on a winning formula and decided to keep it. They churned out six games - six - for the NES, using almost identical gameplay, and people loved it! At this point, sure, Megaman could do more, but would he then still be Megaman?

This sounds like Capcom is scared to go out on a limb here. I mean, if Nintendo had done the same thing, Mario and Zelda would've never made it out of 2d space.

Heh. Capcom made a few 3D Megaman games, but they flopped.

And yeah, Capcom didn't really do a lot of experimentation with the Megaman series until they started making games for the portables, which didn't even really feature Megaman, just the Megaman universe. And on the one hand, that's kinda lame, but on the other hand, I suspect that a lot of the series' fans would have been very disappointed in Capcom if they'd messed with the formula. It's not like Capcom can't make a different run&gun game that features a more versatile protagonist (like, say, the Devil May Cry series, which, surprise surprise, is by Capcom!).

It's one thing to experiment; new gameplay is good, after all. However, it's another thing to misrepresent the game you're producing. People expect Megaman games to be formulaic, and it's what they want. Capcom's choice, therefore, is to either give the people what they want, or to make a different game in a different setting, that experiments more with the gameplay.

Well, I say that, but I don't think a traditional Megaman game (that is, part of the original series or the Megaman X series) has been made in years. So it's a bit hard to tell what people want these days.

Megaman X1-3 were really fun. I think X4 on the ps1 was fun too but I don't remember exactly where the formulae was ruined. I liked going around looking for capsules to upgrade my armour and stuff but in somewhere between X4 and X6 they gave X the ability to duck and used it in the level design (like had to duck to not die from a collapsing ceiling)... That's where I stopped playing. I also hated the anime cutscene with horrible dialogue (think anime soap opera), Zero taking central stage (I LOVED him as a secondary character), and always having Sigma as the *secret* final boss...

My ideal Megaman X game has the main character deal with the fact that's he's developping emotions and doesn't understand why he chose to fight instead of living a peaceful life (established in the first game). There should be cutscenes (not anime or CG... just text between characters) that explains what's going on and adds a bit of suspense. Furthermore like I said in my previous post X wouldn't learn the new techniques from the bosses he beats but he would get new armour and the acrobatics needed to complete the levels would be more intense (think of a 2d Prince of Persia).

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Original post by KidAero Quote: Original post by Derakon Then Capcom decided that they'd struck on a winning formula and decided to keep it. They churned out six games - six - for the NES, using almost identical gameplay, and people loved it! At this point, sure, Megaman could do more, but would he then still be Megaman? This sounds like Capcom is scared to go out on a limb here. I mean, if Nintendo had done the same thing, Mario and Zelda would've never made it out of 2d space.

I would have to agree that they probably are scared. In my opinion Mario and Zelda have done fine going into 3D. There have been other games that i feel have not done so well when going into 3D. I would have to say sonic has never really been great since it went fully 3D.