You have made a couple of comments in your response to my post and I do wish to respond those. However, I do not wish to get into a flame war over a difference in design philosophies, so remember, all comments and responses to any of your posts (not just limited to mine) should be taken as friendly suggestions, not demands. After all, you are the one with the final say over what your design is.
We here at Game dev are not hostile to your game, in fact, the reason we do post responses is that we see merit in your designs and through this enthusiasm, wish to see your game be as good as it can be.
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By Sadr:
- Listen now. Of course the chance of evasion isn't beyong the players' control. If he's got a 15% chance of evasion, he will know that. If he wants more evasion, he will buy/craft/look for an item that will give him more evasion. If he thinks he's got enough evasion, he will strengthen his char in other ways. If you just think about it, this is not beyond the players' control at all. Ask any mathmatician. If you got a 15% chance for something to happen and you know about this value beforehand, then it is not by any means beyond your control.
Yes. The player does have control over the probability of their character getting hit. But this is control at one step removed from the imediacy of the combat. Once the combat starts the player no longer has control over this aspect. So if the player, decides to start with aggressive tactics (having a low evasion chance), however, during the combat, the player realises that they might be a little over matched and decides to take a defensive stance.
If the evasion chances are already worked out at the start of the battle, they are then locked into one of these regardless of the outcome. However, if this choice is available at all time through the games controls, then this gives the player this choice, this control over their character.
You started this thread discussing control schemes for an Action game. Buy placing the "control" of the character's evasion ability in items and equipment, you are actually removing this control from the direct player input and removing the need for your control scheme.
Too many of these style games use this kind of system where the items and equipment are the deciding factors of the combats. These invariable get reduced to a: "Press the button, wait, press the button, repeat" style combat. The player is removed from the immediacy of the combat, remove from the action.
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- And that is all I need? What I meant would be too complex is if the player was also supposed to decide in which direction and height he would thrust his blows. Because that would get too advanced.
You claimed that what I was suggesting was too complex, I was just stating that it was not as complex as you thought.
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No. Why can't the game support hitting a guy, whith a chance of evasion when that happens, huh? I don't care if it's less complex to just stop at the collisiondetection. I want the game to seem quite reaslistic, while not being unbalanced. A massive warrior with a huge armor should have a very small chance of evasion, whereas a light rogue with only a dagger equipped should have a really high evasion, plus movementspeed of course, but that's just not enough. Having evasion in the game ruins nothing, it just adds a little bit of chance to the combat, which a combat always has and always should have.
Random "To Hit Chance" (with a random evasion chance) is not realistic. It is an abstraction.
The term "unbalanced" cna mean many different things. Even with an Evasion chance and random hits, you can still be unbalanced.
If you want a warrior with heavy armour to have a reduced chance of dodging without random hits/evasion, you can just make it so that the heavier the armour the slower the character dodges (or you might use a delay instead/as well). A rogue with light armour would have a faster reaction and so will stand a better shot at avoiding the attack. This can also be used with an evasion skill. The higher the skill the faster the character can dodge (and so the more easier it is for the player to pull off a dodge).
Skills don't have to be use in a "dice" roll. That is a hangover from the Pen and Paper RPGs. Computers do not have to use that. The immediacy of computer allows us to use different methods.
Yes. Your game could use these variables in a random to hit calculation, but then you are removing the immediacy of the player's actions. Using items and equipment in a random to hit calculation places the player's choice, not during the combat, but at when they bought/made/stole the items and equipment. They still have control, but not immediate control. Not control in the situation.
The term Action implies that the player has the immediacy of their controls. That the choices that they make as the situation is unfolding is the critical choices, not choices that they made half an hour ago.
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- Will you please stop twisting my words around? Yes, I want to be able to detect whether a unit is hit from behind or front. But I also want to add more than that. I don't want to stop there. As I said already, what I meant was too advanced was something like the combatsystem in Age of Conan, where you control the very direction of your sword.
As this was not indicated in your other posts, what else was I supposed to think. The control scheme that you laid out does not give much control over how the attack lands. You focused on the positioning of the character and the controls to do so. You combat control scheme was "Select the attack type, press the attack button".
Controlling the direction of your sword is really only applicable if it has an immediate impact on the combat. It should be used to determine whether or not your attack hits, and if it is used that way, then having a random to hit chance on top of that just makes things confusing and will remove the "reward" the player will get for their playing skill. They will see their hard efforts to hit their opponent get reduced to a random chance. This will rapidly stop them trying to improve their playing and just turn them towards a more passive form of fighting.
If you have control over the "very direction of your sword" and you manoeuvre it past your opponents shield and sword, then you should be rewarded for that.
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- Again, you are twisting my words around. I think you knew perfectly well that I was talking about "flying" projectiles. Anything from an arrow to searing firebolt. Something that comes from afar. And a dodge would normally be nothing more than strafing to the side. That would neither look, nor work well with a sword. Dodging the swing of a sword would be way too tacky and unnatural with the controls and type of view this game has at its disposal.
How was I twisting your words around. I was present8ing you with a different way of looking at the mechanics. I was not twisting what you said at all.
Well, if you want a more graphically pleasing visual, then you can detect that the character is in melee (or attempting to dodge a melee attack) by checking the proximity of an enemy. If the enemy could currently make a melee attack against the player, then you can just run an "evasion" animation, and, if the player could make their own melee attack against the enemy, then allow character to automatically circle strafe them and dodge.
If you make dodge attempts a "tap" of the key (rather than holding it down), then it is even easier for the game to detect an evasion attempt (and this would work well for dodging arrows too). If you want to spend more time on co0ntent too, you can have several dodge animations and so give the player different "styles" of dodging which might be dependent on their armour and/or dodge skills.
Your arguments that this kind of control scheme would make the game look "tacky and unnatural" is not true. It can look more unnatural for the sword of a character to hit an enemy and nothing happen.
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- What makes you jump to that conclusion? I haven't said the slightest thing about what kind of game this will really be. A 6v6 battle may very well be one of the possible scenarios of combat in this game, but it most certainly will not be the only scenario of combat this game has to offer, and therefore it should not be put in a box like that, pulling farfetched conclusions from nowhere.
Several times you mentioned team play (in fact in that same post). That is unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by "Team mates". You also mentioned 12 players in the game, so I did make one assumption that there would be two equal teams. You could have free-for-alls, and 1 vs many games, and the suggestions I made still apply.
So, I did not "pull them from nowhere", but they were based on the information you have provided in both the general descriptions and the specific data. If you have other ideas about the combats, you have not made them clear, so I can only go on what I have been given.
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And with teamplay comes responsibility. Everyone will have a responsibility to every other player.
And this actually confirms what I was talking about. You are including team play and therefore you need to look at how individuals in that team will be able to help. If a mage can make attacks like an archer would (but having access to other abilities too), then why would someone play an archer. If a mage is on their team then they are redundant and if a mage is on the other team, then they are outmatched. Balance in team play is not only about them being equal, but also include the character/player having something (or some things) important to do.
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- No I do not. The skill of a player is still there. It's just that you wont be allowed to control the hits from one enefy factor, which is the melee hits. And just because this is missing, you're saying, completely unfounded, that I've taken the skill away. In this game, a player will be able to make a very extensive, viable and dynamic itembuild for himself because of the looting/crafting-system in this game. A player will be able to choose between a wide arsenal of skills and spells, and he will also choose what to specialize in when it comes to both abilities, stats and weapons among other things. In-combat, the player will be able to dodge incoming projectiles, find the right time to execute skills (combos) and spells, attack at the right time be it behind the enemy or when it is weakened somehow. Also, you must choose your battles. Things like height will have an impact on the chance of a successful hit, and in a narrow hallway there will not be much room for an unlucky warrior to avoid an archers deadly arrows.
Do not confuse "Player Skills" with "Character Skills". Item crafting and spells are all Character Skills. I am talking about Player skills.
Player skills are the skills that you as a player have, not the skills that the character that you as a player control.
Player skills can be diverse as twitch skills, reasoning skills, mathematical ability (to crunch all the stats), in-game knowledge (knowing where the best item drops are, etc).
I was not meaning that you had removed all skill from the game, only that you have removed certain immediate skills that are applicable during combats (namely the skills involved in getting the character to do what you want it to do).
All of the arguments you put forth actually work better if you get rid of the random to hit chance.
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You'll have to time your skills for your team's benefit, you must keep an open eye for ambushes or dying teammates that could need backup and/or a heal. You must know when the team needs to stand together like one, and when you can spread out and expand your area-control.
All of which can also be accomplished without the need for a random to hit chance. None of these are reasons to favour a random hit mechanic over a deterministic hit mechanic.
the game will be fast-paced/quote]
Fast-paced does not mean action.Quote:
A skill can be anything from a special way of swinging a sword, to a quick tackle, swiping your enemy's feet off the ground! The impact of many skills will be reduced by things like a thick armor, but some skills may be designed for the soul purpose of making such obstacles obsolete. You must choose the use of your skills wisely to best counter the movement, gear and special attributes of your foe.
Again, these can be done without the need for any random to hit.
The fact that you included movement in this post indicates to me that the player's control over their character's movement is an important aspect of the gameplay. Using a random to hit mechanic reduces the importance of the player's control over the character's movement and, to me, doesn't seem to mesh with your descriptions of what you want the gameplay to be like.Quote:
(Btw, if you guys could show me some other RPG/Adventuregames that you feel are truly action-packed and fast-paced, please do refer me to these games so that I can see what I'm up against and maybe get some new inspiration and ideas.)
Well I am actually working as designer on such a game (Illusion of Destiny). I have faced these same situations as you are in. I chose to drop the random to hit mechanic and go with a deterministic hit mechanic for exactly the reasons I have explained in my posts. The game is an action team based gameplay with character development (skills, stats, equipment). It is not so much a role playing game though (as the gameplay is more focussed on team vs team it is closer to Counterstrike than Diablo), but there is no reason that we could not take it in that direction (although I would have to change and add a to the current skills).
Also, have a look at a game called "Sword of the Samurai". It is an old DOS game (you might need to get something like DOSBox to play it). It is a sort of RPG (it has a few hack and slash parts) and it uses a deterministic to hit system (and a deterministic damage system too).
It used to be that you had to use random stat generation for characters in a CRPG. This is no longer used (or not used in major mainstream games) because it did not give the players the control over their characters that computers allowed, it was just a hangover from the PnPRPG. It was kept simply because "That was the way it had been done before".
Designers have realised that this was holding back the genera. So too is the random "To Hit" mechanic.
Yes, you can make a CRPG that uses a random to hit mechanic and it can be fun. But for an action oriented game, the random to hit mechanic is outdated and computers can do far better than it. We can do far better than it.
