Greetings! This is both my first day (well, as a registered user) and post in this community, so I'm very excited to see how this'll turn out. As the title implies, I want to discuss different ways of movement in a fast-paced adventure game, made fitting for both PvE and PvE combat. We might also get into combat-systems, but mainly I'd like us to stick to movement. I might as well get you started with my own idea for a type of movement. This type of movement is designed for games similar to Diablo II, just that the overview and spellcasting would be a lot more similar to Warcraft 3. If you still don't know what I'm talking about: The view will be top-down (birdview). First off, I love using DASW for moving forward/backward and strafing. It makes dodging projectiles so much easier and more fun, and if you want to have strafing in a game, I see few other decent ways of doing it. So now we got some movement, but it still needs to be a bit more adjustable. Obviously, this is where the mouse comes in. Now, to rotate your char, you would simply hold down the right mouse-button, and then point in the direction where you want you character to face. The char would start moving there like it does in diablo, but you could also strafe while you run, or press S (backwards) which would overrun the forward command issued by the right-click, causing it now to be used merely as a rotator. But we can't just prioritize movement can we? In this lil' game I have in mind, you will have a 3x4 or a 2x6 abilitypanel at your disposal. You should be able to left-click an ability and then choose your target (or ground or whatever depending on the spell). But, in my opinion you should also be able to hotkey these spells, seeing as there's quite a few of them (not all 12 would be active though) and it would add to the learningcurve. But wait now. Some idiot reserved D,A,S AND W just to do some fancy movement!? So now, question is: Is there a good and user-friendly way of solving this? The only possible solution I see is this: Let's say you're using every key from Q&A to Y&H for spells. To be able to use these hotkeys, you simply press (one click or hold?) CTRL and movement with DASW will be disabled. In other words, you can only use rightclicking to move around, and at some point you will be busy choosing where to place your spell with the left-button. I hope I didn't ramble for so long that I no longer have anyone with me. Basicly what I'm looking for here, is two kinds of input: 1) Feedback on my own suggestion for a movementsystem. 2) Suggestions (partly or complete) for a different kind of movementsystem. Just remember: - It should allow for as extensive movement as possible; such as dodging projectiles by strafing. - You should quite easily be able to control other units, preferrably while also being able to move your main char to some extent. - You should also be able to use the keyboard for an abilitypanel using 3x4 or 2x6 buttons. ---------------- Final Edit: First off, thanks to the ones who provided me with a lot of useful feedback. I have now made up my mind regarding most features in both my movement- and combatsystem. In the final edit of this post, I will try to summarize these features. Movement: As a goal, there will be no strict way of using hotkeys in this game. A player should have the choice to customize the controls to his liking. There will be default setups that should make it easier for most players though. As a default, the "FESD" letters will be used for movement, and the buttons around it ("WQAZ" and "ERFC") will be used for quickly accessable hotkeys for abilities. FESD - The FESD letters on the keyboard will be used to move your character around just like it is done (though usually with WASD) in an FPS. E = Forward, D = Backward, S = Left, F = Right (E+F = UpRight etc.). Mouse - For more extensive movement, the mouse will be used. By holding down the right mouse button, you will be able to turn your char around. You can also command your unit to walk to a specific spot, by doubleclicking the right mousebutton. Both the keyboard and the mouse will be used when issuing more special commands, like spells. To cast a spell, you simply left click the appropriate icon and (if it's a targettable spell) target it where you want. For faster casting, you may use whichever hotkeys you have picked out (WQAZ and ERFC by default). The Combatsystem(Ran out of time. Might add later.)[Edited by - Sadr on April 7, 2007 5:51:30 PM]

Your idea sounds interesting.
Some tweaks:
-auto-move should be activated using double-RMB.(You already have W for moving towards the target)
-RMB sets target where player faces "all-the-time". (This would create interesting spherical movement + fighting(target can be an enemy))
-pressing movement buttons twice performs dash
-"Q"&"E"-buttons for ability. "Divide and Conquer" interface (12 abilities -> 6 -> 3 -> 2 -> 1). You could think it as a pie-menu using only 2 buttons.

Thanks for your input!

Quote:

Original post by grusifix_ -auto-move should be activated using double-RMB.(You already have W for moving towards the target) -RMB sets target where player faces "all-the-time". (This would create interesting spherical movement + fighting(target can be an enemy)

- Ye I thought about this. At first I thought "but then you can't move your char fluently like in Diablo, I really enjoy that way of moving ;) But now I do understand that pretty much the same thing can be done with this setting, seeing as you can just hold down both W and the RMB and you will move diablolike.
*** Pauses to think ***
Now that I think about it, I think I like the double-RMB movement better :) Because you can rotate your char (useful for archers in perticular) without having to move slightly, and there's no need for a "hold position" button.

Quote:

-pressing movement buttons twice performs dash

- I'm not quite sure if I get what you're saying with the word "dash". Like a jump you mean? If so then great ;) I've played Gears of War a bit, and I loved the way you moved in that game. I was thinking of adding an "actionbutton" of sorts in this game, that would do something special depending on the surroundings. But it could work for people as well, so it would kinda be like a combination of the A button in GoW, and the E button in HF, hehe.

Quote:

-"Q"&"E"-buttons for ability. "Divide and Conquer" interface (12 abilities -> 6 -> 3 -> 2 -> 1). You could think it as a pie-menu using only 2 buttons.

- Very interesting. But... I'm not sure if I get it ^^ Please explain further. Keep in mind that I want to have at the very least 4 buttons very easily accessable for quick use.

Good input so far, thanks. I think I'll might post my combatsystem as well, which would make it easier to understand what kind of a movement set-up I'm really looking for here. I'll just post this for now and do an edit later.

I thought more about action buttons and I believe that the system I presented is little too slow.
The Idea was to divide all the actions/spells in two groups.

So 12 spells are put in either left(Q-button) or right(E-button) group.
When e.g. Q is pressed then left group is divided in two "new" groups.
But as I said this isn't fast enough.
(Btw check out open-source game Gate88 it has quite interesting interface... also GP Gems 3 has some info about pie menus)

Dash: yeah it's sort of jump.. maybe dodge/side-step just make sure it's short and fast. I don't know if there really is a word dash. Got the word from Hajime no Ippo or Sonic Battle.

One thing I'd like to point out is that "targeting system" might turn out pretty robust.
Player can set:
-Destination
-Target enemy (moving "destination")
-Follow target (2xRMB on moving target)
-etc.(I'm out of time but you got my point ;))

I see what you mean now, and sadly you're right; that would be too slow :(

I think a right-ctrl+hotkey would suffice. Just try to imagine the following experience: You're running around using DASW, strafing about dodging the missiles from your foe. Suddenly you see your chance to strike back with a well placed spell. It's a target-ground spell with no casting nor stoptime (meaning; you can move while casting it). Your foe is right infront of you, still spamming his projectilespell (stupid boy *sigh*), so you simply double-RC to the side, still dodging his projectiles, and instantly hold down the CTRL-button giving you access to the [A]irblow spell's hotkey and you will now see your pointer formed as a circle, indicating the AoE of your spell. You quickly place it on your foe, clicking the left-MB to cast the spell.

Even before the spell was cast, you already had access to your DASW movement again, and you haven't even reached the spot you ordered your unit to run to with the doubleclick.

The way I see if (I beg you, please do correct me if I'm wrong) there's no easier and more userfriendly way of doing it. People aren't capable of doing too many things at the same time anyway.

This thread is of course still open for input about anything regarding movement, but I'll take the thread a step further by introducing you to my planned combat-system. You've already had a little foretaste of it; the way you cast spells. It's supposed to be as free and customizable as possible. Some might require a pre-set target, some require several targets, some require self, some ally, some ground, some require specific types of aiming etc..
When it comes to the close-combat, some might say "duh, boring!". Because well, I plan on not having any directional hits or anything. To spice it up, you'll have the DASW movement, you'll have a special type of abilities that (more or less) obeys the rules of physics, and you'll have the spells. But when it comes to plain striking, it just be a matter of hitting when your opponent is close enough. There are a few other factors involved though, such as decreased movementspeed while striking, and increased damage taken if hit in the back. I also have a parrysystem (fully automatic) in mind.

Ranged shooting is a little bit different though, and it is especially here that I'd like to get some more feedback. Here's what I had in mind:
This game will be fast-paced with a focus on quick thinking and teamplay (when applicable) so there's no need for an over-complicated way of targeting. What I'm seeing is that the archer picks his target. From this point on, there's an autoaim on that target, but the autoaim only keeps the foe in your aim, it doesn't make sure you hit it. So while you autoaim, you can (or more like must) rotate your char in order to hit more precisely.

Now here's on last thing for discussion: How to best target a foe for standard engagement? I just have this simple thing in mind: For single thrust/shot, you simply click (and hold if desired) the left mousebutton in the desired direction and you'll do an airblow if noone is closeby. To autofight an enemy (as in you'll hit him as soon as he gets in range) you'll simply doubleclick him with the LMB. I think auto-hitting/firing is required for this game when thinking about how frequently abilities will be used, but I'm open for other suggestions.

I like this idea for movement in an isometric Diablo-style RPG. It beats the hell out of point-and-click movement, which got very frustraing to me, espacially while dodging. As for spell hotkeys, if you don't want to have a hotkey for every spell, you might want to make the column of keys just to the left of your movement keys (Ctrl, Shift, Caps Lock, Tab) your spellkeys. They are large and easy to tell apart by feel, vital in a battle where taking your eyes from the screen would mean firey death. Unless of course you need those keys for something else.

Hmmm, that's a very interesting idea. The hotkeys could go from:
Ctrl->Shift->CL->Tab

-> 1->2->3->4.
I don't think I require more than 8 active castable spells available. One probmlem might be that this will cause problems with some people's keyboards... Hopefully keyboards are better these days, but in a keyboard I have, shift for some reason disables Up-Left (W+A) movement when held down. I don't think that would affect the gameplay much though. And the players might be allowed to choose what hotkeys to use for themselves, or at least which spells for which hotkeys.

Ok then, I'll talk it out with my co-developer. Thanks!
(And keep it coming guys, hehe)

[Edited by - Sadr on April 20, 2007 10:42:02 AM]

I think that TAB and CAPS_LOCK are "hard" to use.

Quote:

Original post by Sadr The only possible solution I see is this: Let's say you're using every key from Q&A to Y&H for spells. To be able to use these hotkeys, you simply press (one click or hold?) CTRL and movement with DASW will be disabled. In other words, you can only use rightclicking to move around, and at some point you will be busy choosing where to place your spell with the left-button.

How about pressing Q (or CTRL) pops up a menu (little icons) around target where player can select spells using mouse. Pointer could even warp automatically to the menu. E could be used for self-spells.

An interesting idea, but it makes it very hard to use target-ground spells. It's also quite important to me to support as quick casting as possible.

Another alternative:
Instead of running with DASW, you run with FESD! You'll have AQW on the left side, and RTG on the right side for quick usage. And your hand is still comfortably in reach of all the other button that might be of use to you. I'm kinda liking this one :)

Targeting ground-spells is easy as targeting enemy-spells. Target always has coordinates. On enemy-target coordinates tend to change. Perhaps Q&E should be used for quick spells (hotkeys) and CTRL&SHIFT for spell menus.

FESD might work. Although it could somewhat "wierd" to use those keys, the little bump on F-button could be quite useful.