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(Out of curiousty, I wonder how a dating sim mmorpg would work out, since you never know just who it is you are talking to on the other end. Doesn't the possibilty that the shy nerdy asian girl you like talking to is really your uncle Tom kill the mood?)

I have a, uh, FRIEND who spends a certain amount of time in internet chat sites, and (ahem) HE says surprisingly not. You're already imagining what you're doing, why not imagine who you're doing it with?

Of course, this changes very rapidly if the person at the other end (so to speak) reveals the truth... ignorance is bliss in these situations. That is - so I'm told.

Of course (again), webcams make the whole thing an awful lot more relaxed.

So my friend tells me.

Back on-topic!

There are many big name designers who can't program. Miyamato, Peter Molyneux, Will Wright, David Jaffe... don't get much bigger than them. Some designers have started out as programmers, but since design is very much a full time job, their skills have declined over time so they are no longer able to contribute code: Richard Garriot, Chris Stamper, Jeff Minter (I think).

In fact, that's what it really comes down to. For a "big name" game, the "big name" designers on board simply don't have time to program and design. It can't be done. They are both full-time jobs.

Small studios or independent games may find this to not be the case; historically, early games were made entirely by people who fulfilled the roles of programmer, designer, artist, musician and tester. Many small games are made nowadays in exactly the same way. Non-indie professional games in the modern era simply can't work like that. (I'm trying to be careful with my words here to avoid the inevitable backlash - what I'm basically trying to say is, the games you see on a shelf in a shop will not have been made by one or two people, or teams with many cross-discipline individuals).

This is not to say that designers who can (or used to be able to) program aren't useful - they are, in the same way that technical artists are. They are rare enough that when you find a good one you hold onto them, but equally they are by no means essential.

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Original post by Kylotan So the job of the designer is to daydream and think up crazy things without any restrictions, while the programmer has to be both practical and creative enough? No wonder I think the best designers are all programmers.

No offense, but I don't think a more false statement has ever been uttered. You do not want programmers doing ANYTHING outside of code. Period. When you let programmers, who by job title not artists, designers, etc the end product reflects that.

You need good project management skills to bring all of that together, to work thru the back and forth. But I firmly believe that a programmer shouldn't be making any decisions about a game design based on "what code is available to him."

Please.

Original post by Vampyre_Dark

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In 6 years you never thought of trying to learn to code? I had a nice tile map editor and a little rpg game working in the allegro game library less then a week after picking up C... I barely knew half the keywords. [lol]

Why would you want someone without a skillset in programming to even worry about how to code things? Their time is much better spent working within their talents... just as yours are.

As long as they have some clue about the process of doing it, that is all that's needed.

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Original post by sunandshadow I really don't understand how that point of view works. In indie game design, where there is no reward but seeing a cool idea become reality (and maybe some pipe dream of future royalties), what would motivate a programmer other than loving the designer's ideas?

Working on his own ideas.

No duh.

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Original post by Machineman Quote: Original post by Kylotan So the job of the designer is to daydream and think up crazy things without any restrictions, while the programmer has to be both practical and creative enough? No wonder I think the best designers are all programmers. No offense, but I don't think a more false statement has ever been uttered. You do not want programmers doing ANYTHING outside of code. Period. When you let programmers, who by job title not artists, designers, etc the end product reflects that.

I like to make a distinction between programmers and software developers. The former merely bang out instructions to coerce the computer into accomplishing a task; the latter are designers, and concepts like robustness, elegance, intuitiveness, usability and ergonomics matter to them.

Even more interesting, the latter typically have interests outside of code, like art and music and industrial design and fabrication. This makes them quite adept and well inclined to be game designers, too. Please don't despise them; I'm one of them.

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You need good project management skills to bring all of that together, to work thru the back and forth. But I firmly believe that a programmer shouldn't be making any decisions about a game design based on "what code is available to him."

A software developer wouldn't make such a decision, either. On the other hand, a software developer wouldn't come up with an outlandish design and then say "it's done when it's done" - that is the sort of crap that leads to interminable work schedules, burnout, crunch and the various lifestyle ills of the game industry. A software developer would look at what code is available, what design objectives are within reach within a set time/cash budget, and how best to evolve the existing code into the desired code while keeping the game runnable at all times so that assets can be deployed and tested within a live environment.

Don't blame us if you don't know anything about being a software developer, because you've only worked with shitty programmers.

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Original post by sunandshadow Perhaps if I had ever found one competent and experienced programmer (don't forget motivated, loyal, and good at staying in communication, all essential traits of a lead programmer) I might agree. But programmers seem to not be interested in my game designs. Is it because I want to do something artistic, literary, and big? Is it because my ideas are girly? (Dating-sim-like RPG, combat-optional MMO...) Is it because there is not any particularly innovative programming called for by my gameplay designs? Because I can't think of anything more horrifying than trying to make the next Tolkien/WOW clone? I don't know, but, in 6 years of doing indie game design I haven't found a programmer I could call a partner, who loved my ideas and wanted to bring them to life.

No, yes, maybe, no.

It's different in the indie scene, though. An unpaid programmer needs to love the idea. A paid programmer merely needs to be okay with it.

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Original post by Machineman Why would you want someone without a skillset in programming to even worry about how to code things? Their time is much better spent working within their talents... just as yours are.

Time is not well spent when you achieve nothing. Looking to hop into a group in a 'boss' position, especially, when they will get along fine without you, won;t get you very far.

I have multiple skillsets. I do programming, art, writing, etc... I don't do sound, but there are merchants for that.

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Original post by SunTzu There are many big name designers who can't program. Miyamato, Peter Molyneux, Will Wright, David Jaffe... don't get much bigger than them. Some designers have started out as programmers, but since design is very much a full time job, their skills have declined over time so they are no longer able to contribute code: Richard Garriot, Chris Stamper, Jeff Minter (I think).

Your list isn't as big as you think; out of the four big name designers you listed who can't program I'm afraid Molyneux and Wright do in fact know how to program. Sid Meier is another such example. What this shows us is that there are plenty of big name designers who may not program, but that the majority do at least know how.

This doesn't neccesarily indicate that all good designers must be able to program however.

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Original post by Kazgoroth Your list isn't as big as you think; out of the four big name designers you listed who can't program I'm afraid Molyneux and Wright do in fact know how to program. Sid Meier is another such example. What this shows us is that there are plenty of big name designers who may not program, but that the majority do at least know how.

Let's not forget that Mayamoto didn't walk in off the street! He knew what he was doing, had experience in his field, and a bunch of paid programmers working under him. He didn't storm into a room where programming was rumored to be happening, and cry out... "I HAVE A VISION!"

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Original post by Vampyre_Dark Quote: Original post by Machineman Why would you want someone without a skillset in programming to even worry about how to code things? Their time is much better spent working within their talents... just as yours are. Time is not well spent when you achieve nothing. Looking to hop into a group in a 'boss' position, especially, when they will get along fine without you, won;t get you very far. I have multiple skillsets. I do programming, art, writing, etc... I don't do sound, but there are merchants for that.

There are specialties for a reason...

Not saying you don't have to wear many hats in indie development, but.. given the choice... it would be silly not to seek out specialists.

Take Blizzard for example... do you think their artists spend any time writing stories? (let alone programming code). And Blizzard is known for the quality of their games.

It has to do with focusing on a specialty and managing all of those parts together.

Just the statement you said: "I don't do sound but there are merchants for that" is exactly why you don't have programmers doing design or vice versa - you do not truly appreciate or in fact understand, what it takes to produce quality work in another area of focus that isn't your own.

If you take that approach - BAM - mediocre game at best.

Just because the game is done doesn't mean it's good.