This is sort of based on the Athorok: The Adventure topic but I have revised alot of things, changed the title, and felt it would be better to post it as a seperate topic since it is something different. Note: This is an MMO, feedback is welcome but not about MMOs, only about this game idea. Levelling -Many games, in fact all of them, have a level that players can see as they click on you or something. My game would not contain this type of thing. Instead you would have certain stats you would "level up" by actions you took. If something you did, such as sparring, made you stronger, your strength would increase. If you made a wise decision, it may just raise your wisdom. -Nobody can ever tell what level you are unless a) you tell them your stat levels b) see by the very nice gear that you must be high up in levels. -Anybody can equip anything, however, if your level in strength is low and you try and use a huge greatsword, more than likely you will just kill yourself. -Professions or noncombat skills have no level either. You can learn secrets to the trade to increase what you can do, but level doesn't matter. A beginner in forging could learn a high powered trade secret if they learned how to. Activities -Going along with the last level feature listed, you do not automatically perform an action just by hitting some button like in most MMO games. For lack of a better term, a minigame comes up where you put the knowledge of your trade to the test. If in cooking you are making a loaf of spiced bread, you would follow the recipe you are using to the letter or mess up. This will balance out the no profession levels with player skill. Guilds/Kingdoms -At game launch there will be no kingdoms present. The world of Faeril will be up for grabs. -Players make a guild by claiming land or buying it. The first guild hall is free, so take advantage of designing it however you want and make it as best you can. Later guild halls will expand your power but will cost you. -In a guild, later guild halls or expansions onto the first one will require Player Characters to perform duties such as gathering stone and shaping it into blocks. NPCs will not perform these duties for the guild. -Once a guild becomes big enough, wealthy enough, and powerful enough, it can become a kingdom. -A kingdom cannot gain new members. This protects guilds and the whole world from everyone joining a few huge kingdoms. A guild can grow as big as it wants, but when it decides to become a kingdom, no more people can join. -Whether a guild or kingdom, you can participate in wars to conquer land and expand your power. Alliances can be formed and broken as well. -To make up for the no new players, when a player leaves a person can be invited to join within 36 hours to replace them and NPCs join to take care of work that players had to do in the guild. -Kingdoms and guilds have similar functions, the only major differences are people being able to join, the NPCs, army size, and wealth oppurtunities. -A guild must be started by at least three people, all three must come to some sort of agreement for anything to happen. The Sea -Players will need to get around the sea somehow and the most common way will be a ship. -Players can own a ship, via creation or purchase. Players can charter passage on NPC ships or PC ships. -A crew can turn to piracy in an unofficial manner by attacking other vessels. -Crews can haul goods to sell, make money off of chartering passage, raid other ships, join the war navy of a kingdom or guild, or sail to adventure and treasure. -Pirates must be wary, for they could easily make a kingdom mad and face the wrath of their warnavy. Pking and Death -If you die in a non pked manner, they lose nothing. A priest must ressurect them or they can ressurect in the nearest church, losing a percentage of XP. -If you die in a pked manner, the killer chooses one UNEQUIPPED item to claim as reward. However, like piracy, this could result in being hunted down by a kingdom or guild the player was a part of. Plus, your crime can be reported to officials in an NPC town, city, etc. (This does not imply NPC kingdoms) and warrants will go out, offering reward for the death of the person and return of the item taken. -Since there is no real "level" except in stats, any guidelines on within a certain level cannot be established. We only hope to make it as hard as possible for this to occur. Combat -Combat and view is in first person. You click to attack or block and hit numbers to cast spells. -Player accuracy is important for melee, archery, and spellcasting. As is being able to avoid attacks or block them well. -If you have been attacked or have attacked within 40 seconds, you cannot log out to run from death. Bandits and Caravans -Like pirates, players can form a bandit group. Four people must start a bandit group and can begin pking players and avoiding being hunted down. Bandits also must be careful. They don't want alot of people coming after them and killing them. -With the same button, a caravan of merchants and their guards can be formed. Caravans are prime targets but the most dangerous targets, for bandits. A caravan is likely part of a kingdom, taking supplies to the markets of other cities. Homes and Businesses -To have a place to store those extra goodies, buy land and get a house. You can safely store things here, because nobody but you can open the door when it is closed. Items cannot be picked up in a home or business and the owner cannot be killed inside it. This is to make the home a haven for the player and their loot. -In the same way you get a house, you could set up a business in the building. Put goods up for display and for sale and make money. The same guidelines apply for a business as a house. Questing -To get a quest, you must find a citizen with something they need done. Players or NPCs can give quests. -Due to the allowance of players to give quests, the quest log is manually updated. You type in the important information and go to it. -Quests disappear daily as they are finished and new ones show up as people need some more help. -If an NPC gives a quest, nobody but the first person to find it and their group can finish it and get the reward. I'm not sure how to make it where quest sabotage is impossible, due to mob information that will come next, suggestions are welcome. -If the player does not want to find a group for himself, he can tell the NPC to give his name to anyone who come looking for a quest. Then they can PM him and they can group up. Or the player can leave the option off and find a group himself. Mobs/Enemies -A "mob" or group of creatures or humanoids that can be attacked,is not likely to be in the same place more than once. They do not respawn and will actually move around the world. -Mobs will drop loot appropriate to what they are. A wolf will not drop a longsword for example. Anything a foe is wearing or wielding can be looted and their body parts can be severed and picked up if so desired. -Bodies can be hidden/buried or will disappear after fourteen hours or so. We want to keep it realistic but we also want the world to not be littered with billions of corpses. Note: This is a free-roam adventure with an emphasis on one or two callings in life. You can be a wealthy merchant or a mighty adventurer. This is based on how you work for your stats. Everyone still uses a combat class but those who prefer a life of merchanting for example would be killed by one who used combat. I don't want it to be EASY to be a captain, caravan leader, pirate, merchant, adventurer, guild leader, and everything else but I don't want it to be HARD to mix two possible roles and do what you want. I want it to be more like real life where you acquire a few skills and base your career and everything else on those skills. Note2: Your alignment is not chosen by your race. Races Humans: I refuse to describe the race that everyone here SHOULD be. Moon Elves: A moon elf is an elf with fair but pale skin that prefer the night. Moon Elves value art, music, lore, and knowledge. Moon Elves are fast and silent and are known for their graceful nature. Wood Elves: A wood elf is an elf who protect and value nature. They are stealthy figures and are often considered barbaric for their ways that are contrare to other elves. Dark Elves: A dark elf is an elf who likes the dark and feels uncomfortable in the sun. They have ebony black skin and are often misjudged as "evil". Dark Elves are like moon elves in the fact that they are graceful, swift, and silent. Gold Elves: A gold elf is an elf whose pride is greater than they are. Gold Elves are masters of the arcane and illusion and often prefer not to use melee weapons. They value music, art, and lore. Gold Elves think they are the superior race. Snow Elves: A snow elf is an elf with extremely pale skin. They are barbaric in every sense of the word and generally use large weapons and a little arcane magic in their combat. Snow Elves prefer to be in the cold but can live anywhere. Kindred Elves: A kindred elf is an elf like a cross between a snow elf and a human. They have fair skin, are discliplined, and courageous. Kindred Elves have always loved the art of warfare. They are swift but big, making them like a heavily armored wasp. Dwarves: A dwarf is a short but burly figure who prefer the forge and heavy equipment. Dwarves feel at home in the mountains and caves. Dwarves are respected as one of the strongest races alive. Halflings: A halfling is like a human child. They are cheerful folk who are natural trouble makers and stealthy. Maybe that is why so many are theives. Halflings tend to live with humans in their communities or outside them. Orcs: An orc is a large barbaric humanoid. They usually have brownish green skin that is rough and looks sort of like clumped mud. Orcs are often unintelligent, but can become intellectual through rigorous studies. Minotaurs: A minotaur is like a bull who stood up and grew intelligent. Minotaurs have horned heads and shaggy fur. They prefer large weapons and armor but are often misjudged to have the intelligence of an orc. Minotaurs are quite knowledgeable folk. Centaurs: A centaur is a man with the lower body of a horse. Their torso is generally that of a wood elf or human and they have great loves of music, nature, and beauty. Centaurs are naturally fast. Krin: A krin is a lizardman. They have smooth or rough scaly skin and generally live in swamps or marshes. Krin are protective of their honor and good name and will challenge any who dare soil it. Race suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Classes Warrior: A warrior uses melee weapons, varying from light to heavy and rely on their strength to outlast and outmatch foes. Warriors have no magical ability, so rely on those who do for healing and support. A warrior generally keeps foes blocked off from attacking their allies. Ranger: A ranger uses ranged weapons and light melee weapons for swift attacks. They are wildlife experts and can do things such as track, set traps, or identify wild plants. A ranger uses his bow, sling, javelin, or other ranged weapon until the foe gets to close, then its time for the melee weapon. Rogue: A rogue uses the shadows to hide them, their speed to keep them safe, and chains of nearly impossible attacks to bring down their foes. They are acrobratic, sneaky, and deadly. A rogue can use and make poisons for more effective attacks. Priest: A priest uses the magic of their god in battle. Every god they worship gifts them with different spells. Every god has some healing spells to offer. Priests support their companions with healing and buffs. Sorceror: A sorceror uses arcane magic and runestones to create spells and use them in battle. Creating spells is the primary job of a sorceror and when a sorceror kills another sorceror, they can learn one of the spells made by the one they killed. Battlemage: A battlemage combines arcane spells with melee attacks for a combination of weapon and spell. A battlemage has to know how to cast fast spells and throw in attacks and parries while casting them. Monk: A monk uses martial arts, staves, and daggers for up close attacks. They favor stunning their foes and then leaving the rest for others. They are honorable and discliplined. Monks have a very limited supply of healing spells. Necromancer: A necromancer is a user of dark magic and death magic. They use dark energy to cast spells involving fire and ice along with spells of darkness. They can animate the corpses of the dead and use them to do their bidding. Knight: A knight is like a combination of a priest and a warrior. They use the magic of the gods along with melee strength like a battlemage uses arcane magic with melee. Like a priest, knights can worship any god, but their spells are weaker than those of a priest. Illusionist: An illusionist uses illusions to deceive the mind of the foe. They can make a foe see something not there, make them think about something differently, or any number of things. Illusionists also use arcane magic and runestones to form spells, but they use a twisted form of arcane. Druid: A druid uses nature to call upon the aid of animals, plants, and wind. A druid can call to a plant and simply move it wherever he/she wants. Druids also know healing spells and like rangers can track, identify wild plants, and set traps. Bard: A bard uses their voice to sing out songs that twist arcane magic into spells. They also use runestones to add the magic to their songs. Bards also can cast simple healing spells and illusions without singing, and also require the bard to create them. Communer: A communer uses the spirits of the dead and lifeforce of the living to cast spells. They can heal, harm, or aid. Communers do not need to make their spells. They summon the appropriate spirit, then pull its power into themself. I am still working on the best way for spellcasters to create spells or for necromancers, druids, and communers to cast their own. Suggestions highly welcome as of right now.

I suggest cutting out 90% of the stuff in that. Nobody cares about the visual difference between a snow elf and a gold elf, and everybody already knows what a ranger or priest does. Where your game is similar to others, it's definitely handy to note that, but just summarise. Where you should elaborate is on where it differs.

I wanted to clearly define what each class does. If I cut out 90% of whats there, I wouldn't have a game anymore.

Any more feedback? It is welcomed and appreciated.

I think he means cut 90% out of that post, not your game. Most people on this forum should know what those things are (and if they don't chances are they won't post here anyway). And because you have the redundant data there, your actual original ideas are bogged down and lost, so its unnecessarily hard to make an insightful comment.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean cut your game down, just that document.

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Original post by Adriac Veras This is sort of based on the Athorok: The Adventure topic but I have revised alot of things, changed the title, and felt it would be better to post it as a seperate topic since it is something different. Note: This is an MMO, feedback is welcome but not about MMOs, only about this game idea.

You've packed rather too much into one post. Better to break it up into specific subjects and discuss each one individually. There are many entire threads devoted to specific subjects like handling player death, PKing, griefing and stuff. Trying to discuss them all in one thread is going to be a bit hard to keep on track.

I'd recommend doing a forum search on some of these subjects, since many of them have been discussed intensively. Then, once you've done that, refined your ideas a bit, maybe come back and discuss your solutions separately.

Anyway, I've skimmed through your post and picked up on a few obvious issues or potential issues to bear in mind. I'm not really expecting answers to these here, rather I'm thinking that these are areas that might benefit from a bit more thought and research.

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Levelling -Many games, in fact all of them, have a level that players can see as they click on you or something. My game would not contain this type of thing. Instead you would have certain stats you would "level up" by actions you took. If something you did, such as sparring, made you stronger, your strength would increase. If you made a wise decision, it may just raise your wisdom.

How would you implement this? How can the game judge whether a decision is wise or intelligent or not?

Also, isn't this going to lead to unrestricted grinding, with a large percentage of players becoming amazing at everything?

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-Anybody can equip anything, however, if your level in strength is low and you try and use a huge greatsword, more than likely you will just kill yourself.

Not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that attempting to use an overly heavy weapon will cause my character to accidentally impale himself I would consider this to be unrealistic and annoying. If you mean that he will simply be so useless with it he will lose every fight (and thus die as a consequence) then I guess I could live with it. Be wary of the potential tradeoff of realism vs. useability though. A Final Fantasy fan might think it's perfectly reasonable to wield a sword that is three times the width of a barn door and ten times as long, but then wonder why he can't hit anything with it. Feedback as to why he's useless with it would be a good idea.

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Activities -Going along with the last level feature listed, you do not automatically perform an action just by hitting some button like in most MMO games. For lack of a better term, a minigame comes up where you put the knowledge of your trade to the test. If in cooking you are making a loaf of spiced bread, you would follow the recipe you are using to the letter or mess up. This will balance out the no profession levels with player skill.

Mixing character skill with player skill is a slightly tricky subject. It's not that it can't work, it just has to be done with caution to achieve some level of balance between the two. Oblivion does this sort of thing, and while in some cases it kind of works, in others it doesn't so well. For example, the lock picking minigame is so easy once you get the knack that you can pick a very hard lock 99% of the time even with no points invested in the relevant skill.

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Guilds/Kingdoms -At game launch there will be no kingdoms present. The world of Faeril will be up for grabs. -Players make a guild by claiming land or buying it. The first guild hall is free, so take advantage of designing it however you want and make it as best you can. Later guild halls will expand your power but will cost you. -In a guild, later guild halls or expansions onto the first one will require Player Characters to perform duties such as gathering stone and shaping it into blocks. NPCs will not perform these duties for the guild. -Once a guild becomes big enough, wealthy enough, and powerful enough, it can become a kingdom. -A kingdom cannot gain new members. This protects guilds and the whole world from everyone joining a few huge kingdoms. A guild can grow as big as it wants, but when it decides to become a kingdom, no more people can join. -Whether a guild or kingdom, you can participate in wars to conquer land and expand your power. Alliances can be formed and broken as well. -To make up for the no new players, when a player leaves a person can be invited to join within 36 hours to replace them and NPCs join to take care of work that players had to do in the guild. -Kingdoms and guilds have similar functions, the only major differences are people being able to join, the NPCs, army size, and wealth oppurtunities. -A guild must be started by at least three people, all three must come to some sort of agreement for anything to happen.

what's the point in being a kingdom? Why not just stay a guild and keep recruiting players?

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Pking and Death -If you die in a non pked manner, they lose nothing. A priest must ressurect them or they can ressurect in the nearest church, losing a percentage of XP. -If you die in a pked manner, the killer chooses one UNEQUIPPED item to claim as reward. However, like piracy, this could result in being hunted down by a kingdom or guild the player was a part of. Plus, your crime can be reported to officials in an NPC town, city, etc. (This does not imply NPC kingdoms) and warrants will go out, offering reward for the death of the person and return of the item taken. -Since there is no real "level" except in stats, any guidelines on within a certain level cannot be established. We only hope to make it as hard as possible for this to occur.

Establish some. Even if you decide to allow highly developed characters to pick on newbies with impunity, at least make that decision, and make it early. If you decide that you need to prevent this sort of thing from happening, it may prove difficult without a rethink of your level system which will be harder later on.

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Combat -Combat and view is in first person. You click to attack or block and hit numbers to cast spells. -Player accuracy is important for melee, archery, and spellcasting. As is being able to avoid attacks or block them well.

See earlier point about character skill vs. player skill.

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-If you have been attacked or have attacked within 40 seconds, you cannot log out to run from death.

What if my network cable 'accidentally' becomes disconnected from my computer?

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You've packed rather too much into one post. Better to break it up into specific subjects and discuss each one individually. There are many entire threads devoted to specific subjects like handling player death, PKing, griefing and stuff. Trying to discuss them all in one thread is going to be a bit hard to keep on track.

I think the most I could do to cut it down is remove the race descriptions. I want to show that the basic features are thought out and prepared.

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Levelling -Many games, in fact all of them, have a level that players can see as they click on you or something. My game would not contain this type of thing. Instead you would have certain stats you would "level up" by actions you took. If something you did, such as sparring, made you stronger, your strength would increase. If you made a wise decision, it may just raise your wisdom.

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How would you implement this? How can the game judge whether a decision is wise or intelligent or not? Also, isn't this going to lead to unrestricted grinding, with a large percentage of players becoming amazing at everything?

To resolve that, I already planned to make it where a system will not allow something to continue levelling you up after so X number of levels. This is realistic as well, you cannot keep getting stronger by doing the same exercises.

A program that can tell if something makes sense could easily be done I believe. Its more of a common sense, do not rush at an ogre with a butter knife kind of thing.

Plus, we want it to be where alot of people can become amazing at the game, thats why people why MMOs.

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Not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that attempting to use an overly heavy weapon will cause my character to accidentally impale himself I would consider this to be unrealistic and annoying. If you mean that he will simply be so useless with it he will lose every fight (and thus die as a consequence) then I guess I could live with it. Be wary of the potential tradeoff of realism vs. useability though. A Final Fantasy fan might think it's perfectly reasonable to wield a sword that is three times the width of a barn door and ten times as long, but then wonder why he can't hit anything with it. Feedback as to why he's useless with it would be a good idea.

The second one, they will be more useless and possibly a danger to their own teammates. Due to the pking system, somebody could hurt another member of their team with friendly fire so to speak. Their attacks would go off from the target and their speed slow considerably, plus it will lower their speed and ability to jump and swim.

I hope no offense is taken by this but

If a Final Fantasy player wants to play a game like theirs, they can play Final Fantasy some more. It is retarded in the sense of weapons that big and other things. I want a more realistic approach in my game.

What do you mean by feedback as to why he's useless with it?

Quote:

Activities -Going along with the last level feature listed, you do not automatically perform an action just by hitting some button like in most MMO games. For lack of a better term, a minigame comes up where you put the knowledge of your trade to the test. If in cooking you are making a loaf of spiced bread, you would follow the recipe you are using to the letter or mess up. This will balance out the no profession levels with player skill.

Mixing character skill with player skill is a slightly tricky subject. It's not that it can't work, it just has to be done with caution to achieve some level of balance between the two. Oblivion does this sort of thing, and while in some cases it kind of works, in others it doesn't so well. For example, the lock picking minigame is so easy once you get the knack that you can pick a very hard lock 99% of the time even with no points invested in the relevant skill.

Quote:

Guilds/Kingdoms -At game launch there will be no kingdoms present. The world of Faeril will be up for grabs. -Players make a guild by claiming land or buying it. The first guild hall is free, so take advantage of designing it however you want and make it as best you can. Later guild halls will expand your power but will cost you. -In a guild, later guild halls or expansions onto the first one will require Player Characters to perform duties such as gathering stone and shaping it into blocks. NPCs will not perform these duties for the guild. -Once a guild becomes big enough, wealthy enough, and powerful enough, it can become a kingdom. -A kingdom cannot gain new members. This protects guilds and the whole world from everyone joining a few huge kingdoms. A guild can grow as big as it wants, but when it decides to become a kingdom, no more people can join. -Whether a guild or kingdom, you can participate in wars to conquer land and expand your power. Alliances can be formed and broken as well. -To make up for the no new players, when a player leaves a person can be invited to join within 36 hours to replace them and NPCs join to take care of work that players had to do in the guild. -Kingdoms and guilds have similar functions, the only major differences are people being able to join, the NPCs, army size, and wealth oppurtunities. -A guild must be started by at least three people, all three must come to some sort of agreement for anything to happen.

what's the point in being a kingdom? Why not just stay a guild and keep recruiting players?

Quote:

Pking and Death -If you die in a non pked manner, they lose nothing. A priest must ressurect them or they can ressurect in the nearest church, losing a percentage of XP. -If you die in a pked manner, the killer chooses one UNEQUIPPED item to claim as reward. However, like piracy, this could result in being hunted down by a kingdom or guild the player was a part of. Plus, your crime can be reported to officials in an NPC town, city, etc. (This does not imply NPC kingdoms) and warrants will go out, offering reward for the death of the person and return of the item taken. -Since there is no real "level" except in stats, any guidelines on within a certain level cannot be established. We only hope to make it as hard as possible for this to occur.

Establish some. Even if you decide to allow highly developed characters to pick on newbies with impunity, at least make that decision, and make it early. If you decide that you need to prevent this sort of thing from happening, it may prove difficult without a rethink of your level system which will be harder later on.

Quote:

Combat -Combat and view is in first person. You click to attack or block and hit numbers to cast spells. -Player accuracy is important for melee, archery, and spellcasting. As is being able to avoid attacks or block them well.

See earlier point about character skill vs. player skill.

Quote:

-If you have been attacked or have attacked within 40 seconds, you cannot log out to run from death.

What if my network cable 'accidentally' becomes disconnected from my computer?

Activities and Combat
That is the point of the game, for the person to grow their own skill with the profession or combat so that their personal skill grows, not a level because they made 500 chicken legs watching the character bend over and pretend to place a piece of chicken on a fire then pick it back up.

Understand my point?

Guilds and Kingdoms
Because, the NPCs make your armies larger and give you citizens to do all the work of construction for you rather than your members having to go find stone, possibly fight for it, and then do everything else to prepare that one block of stone for construction of a wall.

You didn't ask this but battles between kingdoms or guilds are not like instanced or anything. This way, a guild can bring in mercenaries of sorts to help them take a stone quarry or something like that.

Pking and Death
If you have an idea then go ahead, but I think the best thing is that a newbie wouldnt have equipment worth taking usually and there are dangers with killing somebody. There are many dangers to killing somebody, I made sure of that.

I don't know how to work with that. If it truly was an accident theyre screwed because if I could set it up I guess I could make it where the connection can be bridged for 40 seconds to something else, then their character stays logged in for that long.

This would hurt people who accidentally do that but hey, how often is somebody accidentally going to unplug it? More often than not they would try unplugging it to instantly log out. But they would just be sitting ducks if they tried it, providing that connection bridge works.

[Edited by - Adriac Veras on March 27, 2007 6:58:10 PM]