Bouncy bouncy bouncy. Toodly dumb, where''s my bum. Weeeeeeeeeee.. bouncy bouncy bouncy i''ve got a rocket full of c#m.

A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew

Alright Mr. Cunningham, you''re coming with us. Here, put these handcuffs on. Now, get in the car, no, Mr Cunningham, in the back of the car, yes, now I''m just going to drive you to a cell so you can think and reflect on what you have just done.


Just because you''re outnumbered doesn''t mean you''re wrong.

sharewaregames.20m.com

I think i should edit that but i can''t do it. Can someone help me, i''m struggling here.

A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew

Eight: In fact the 2D stuff is to drop in such a game nowadays.
And I think when you''re doing it in 3D (specially when using ie.
a GeForce3 based card), you could add a lot of neat effects on
the graphics side as you could add more realistic physics. The
vehicle that is blown to the side with realistic animations is
just one example. Others are real good looking water that is
splashing when you shoot on it or when something falls into it.

You could change the camera position to ie. the back of the
vessel to give a new feeling of game to the player... all that
is difficult to do when you''re doing it in 2D.

Hase: I wonder why doing it in 2D should be faster ? If you''re
using the old "Deluxe Paint"-style to do it, your point could
be valid, but today, you have to produce biig biiiig models that
could be used as advertisers and press release images. So you''ll
have to do the 3D stuff anyways. I admit that the effort to do
is less once you limit yourself to 2D since you only would have
to do everything "one sided", but this also means that you can
forget the physical simulation and the changing camera perspec-
tives...


I would like to ask another question :

Given that a new console (X-Box) will see day in more or less
near future, would it be possible that :

a) developing an AAA shooter for the X-Box and the PC could
bring the shooter genre back to light ? I''m thinking here of
ie. "Baldur''s Gate" that brought back RPGs...

b) if it is well done, it could be a killer app for the console ?


Kind regards,
Metron

quote: Original post by Metron

Eight: In fact the 2D stuff is to drop in such a game nowadays.
And I think when you''re doing it in 3D (specially when using ie.
a GeForce3 based card), you could add a lot of neat effects on
the graphics side as you could add more realistic physics. The
vehicle that is blown to the side with realistic animations is
just one example. Others are real good looking water that is
splashing when you shoot on it or when something falls into it.

You could change the camera position to ie. the back of the
vessel to give a new feeling of game to the player... all that
is difficult to do when you''re doing it in 2D.

Metron

Sorry I may have misunderstood the conversation a little. I just assumed when you said you were interested in shoot ''em ups like Xenon 2, you meant to do it in 2d.

???

Anyway, as you said, if it was done in 3D you could add lots of fancy effects to sell the title. You''d just have to make sure the frantic gameplay (as provided by the 2d shooters) remains.

The gameplay was always the key.

E

Metron

i think you didnt quite understand my point. When I´m talking about 2d I mean REAL 2d. And that does not include using 3d models, a 3d engine and a "2d" viewport (ie. from the side or above).
That qualifies as a 3d game, even if the camera is fixed.

If you''re really and truly planning to do a shmup, then you will need to do a lot more research. Shmups didn''t stop evolving at Tyrian or Xenon 2, y''know. SHMUPS!, and the people there are your friends.

2D-done-with-3D for consoles:

R-Type Delta(PSX): Everything that Einhander had, with classic R-Type play, and better effects.

G-Darius(PSX): Innovative 3D backgrounds, plus best side-scroll boss-fights of all time.

RayStorm/RayCrisis(PSX): Overhead scrolling, perennial Z-level lock-on weapons. Crisis has slightly better game design and graphics whilst being much shorter, IMHO.

ThunderForce V(Saturn/PSX): Beautiful Technosoft warping backgrounds; combined polygon-and-sprite effects. Note that you lose a lot of the effects in the PSX re-release(and gain some FMVs, plus you have to tolerate Vic Ireland''s crap "tweakings" in the American version).

Radiant Silvergun(Saturn): Probably the most innovative gameplay in a shmup, even if it''s only a boss-fest. The background effects must be seen to be believed.

Mars Matrix(Dreamcast): More innovative gameplay; coupled with the insane bullet-dodging of Giga Wing or DoDonPachi. Due to be released in the States fairly quickly.

2D-alone for consoles:

Gunbird 2(Dreamcast): Not a polygon to be found here. Illustrates Psikyo''s sense of character design vs. special effects, as well as what difficulty should be.

Bangai-Oh(Dreamcast, N64): Treasure''s most insane game yet; a side-scrolling version of Smash TV. Supposedly the N64 version is better.

Rayforce/Layer Section/Gun Lock/Galactic Attack(Saturn/arcade): The first hint of 3D-ish effects with straight 2D graphics. Illustrates the power capable with optimized rotation and scaling effects. First appearance of lock-on lasers. And killer Zuntata music.

Soukyugurentai(Saturn, PSX): Mixes Layer Section gameplay with very well tuned graphics and design. Primary sprites are in straight 2D, with polygonal targeting webs and backgrounds.

Gradius Gaiden(PSX): Straight 2D play with 3D effects providing transparency, rotation, etc(how you would probably have to do it on a PC).

Battle Garegga(Saturn): No fancy effects here, just solid 2D gameplay.

Shippu Mahou Daisakusen(Kingdom Grandprix, Saturn): Again, solid 2D effects, and also tries mixing the shmup genre with overhead racing.

Arcade:
Some can be found reviewed at SHMUPS!; try Metal Black, DonPachi, DoDonPachi, Gun Frontier, Armed Police Batrider, Blazing Star, Pulstar, Cybattler, Strikers 1945 series, the list goes on, etc.

2D-done-with-3D on PC:

Idinaloq: Mixes Raystorm backgrounds, some Silvergun weapons, and presents them in an easy-to-swallow package. Only PC shmup where they did an actual opening theme/movie.

Kamui. (download): Proving that you don''t need the latest DirectX, or even a 3D card, to do Layer Section-style effects. Only modern shmup so far that runs with no graphic problems under WinNT 4.0.

RefleX. (download.): Transparency effects to make a strong man weep.

Astro Assembler: Excellent example of mixing polygons and 3D-card-enhanced 2D graphics. Also bloody hard as befitting a shmup, and betrays a bit of Bitmap Bros. influence.

Excess Fraction (download): Innovative gameplay(rather like Psyvariar), plus more scaling effects.

Rally Raid (download): A curious fusion of Metal Black and DoDonPachi; with some lovely backgrounds.

XTOM, done by Jamie(makers of Axis). Graphics are simplistic, but shows off some sorely-needed camera tricks(plus differing play-styles depending on player selected.

Other Japanese PC shmups that don''t have links(but you can find them on Vector): Junker''s Ingot, Magical Shoot, Planet Force, NinjaX, Zugya, Xadlak, Final(Last?) Dimension, Nemesis Crisis.

If you can find it, see if you can pick up a copy of "The Reap". Really hard to find, but several people I know swear by it.

Build a great game and people will buy it; Crystal Interactive seems to do well with only a USD $15 pricetag. Shmups aren''t dead by any stretch of the word--only people''s perceptions are.

Hi,

that''s what I thought...

I know some of the games you cited Mechamen, but since the last ones I really played were Xenon 2 and Battle Squadron, I cited them as my primary examples...

I took a look at some of the examples you gave and they are all quite cool...

I''m happy that there are more shtmups than I thought... and since I only started to work on the concept, I still have some time to do some research.

Kind regards,
Metron