thanks guys, i really appreciate it

ive been thinking about it hard, and i think my main problem is, the course is no where near as thorough as i want it to be, and 2/4 subjects a trimester aren't related to programming (like stuff about communication or even art subjects like learning the basics of photoshop), and at $16000 a year, i feel like i would be better off at home reading books on more relevant topics

or maybe i would be better off in a computer science course?

First and foremost I want to say, while I don't agree that the sentiment expressed above (that you NEED to get the degree to have ANY chance of a great career) is true ... the opposite idea (that getting a degree is pointless) is obviously completely false.

If you are ever in a position where you are just another resume in a stack, just another demo in the email box, etc ... then there are 2 important things ... 1) positive interest generators, 2) negative judegement items. Different coworkers and bosses will have different perculiar details as to how they view the world and what they feel about lines like "academic sucess" vs "unable to acomplish goals" or perhaps "standard academic education" vs "self-driven goals". Not every human on this planet believes that people should be identical cogs following the same predictable path through life.

But college is a great experience. It offers so many opportunites to EXPERIENCE ... meeting people, arguing ideas, agreeing, trying things, failing, doing stuff, acomplishing someting (create hobby programs, demos, whatever). A game creator is usually more than just a 1 dimensional gear-head. Writing, music, art, history, military, fun, teaching, children, society, politics, math, physics, biology ... all of these are the amazing stuff great game designers and developers have been building games with over the coarse of history (I hope you have heard of "Spore" or "Supreme Comander" coming out soon, each creator has almost as much history and academic research involved as they do "fun" research to make a great game).

That said, I don't have my degree. I was in school for many years, there to enjoy and take from it what I wanted ... and so I did. I am the kind of stupid arrogant defiant bastard who refuses to use titles (no "Dr." name dropping in my classes, and the few professors that didn't like me, hated me for it), refuses to go add "MSDE" type certifications to a resume to help start the job hunt, and has always refused to cut my hair or change my liberal attitudes to get a job. But then again, I don't go complaining "why?" when some 50+ office manager things my long hair might mean I have a drug problem and doesn't hire me (true story) or when my lack of college degree means I couldn't get to the phone interview stage at somewhere between 40-70% of the jobs normally on the market. I have only once been directly turned down a job after reaching the in person interview stage - because once you make it that far, it is your personal strengths that carry you (and communication skill and confidence), not the degree. But that degree would have got me more call-backs for sure. And more money early on (which is actually hard to correct because previous income is your best weapon to ensure future income in any career path).

You have to find that balance that is the right life for you. For me, my family was always self employed, and I could always fall back on wedding photogrophy to pay the bills if I couldn't find a job ... plus I've known I was a computer programmer since I was 12 years old - I never had any fear of what others might not offer me, because I new I could just lead my own projects and form my own companies if I had too ... but it didn't come to that.

I recommend the degree ... it is truely good for your career and you, and it truely can be great fun with the right mindset.

Quote: Original post by m4tthead
ive been thinking about it hard, and i think my main problem is.......

You asked the question and we answered (and for once the answers were pretty much unanimous). Now you are back asking the same question (in a different form) - are you hoping we will all suddenly change our opinons?

If the course isn't challenging enough then it will doubtless be easy for you to do extra work on topics of interest in your spare time. Alternatively change to a different degree but don't do so assuming that a more focussed course will be "better" or that there won't parts that you find boring. A wide-ranging education will stand you in better stead later in life.

Quote: or maybe i would be better off in a computer science course?

Both are equally good, neither is better, both are far far better than giving up school. Horrid though it is, the fact is that sometimes your parents actually do know what they are talking about.

m4 wrote:
>how important is that piece of paper?

Very.

>or maybe i would be better off in a computer science course?

Your own passions are your own personal yellow brick road. Your own passions will lead you to your own personal Emerald City. Don't study what others tell you to study. Study what YOU want to study.

Quote: Original post by m4tthead
thanks guys, i really appreciate it

ive been thinking about it hard, and i think my main problem is, the course is no where near as thorough as i want it to be, and 2/4 subjects a trimester aren't related to programming (like stuff about communication or even art subjects like learning the basics of photoshop), and at $16000 a year, i feel like i would be better off at home reading books on more relevant topics

or maybe i would be better off in a computer science course?

This is a rarity for me. I hardly post, and when I do, I rarely post twice in a thread. So.. more words from Ellis, for you.

If the course is nowhere near thorough for you, you can always learn more things on your own time, in addition to classes. You could research transferring to as school with a more rigorous curriculum. You say you feel like you would be better off at home reading books on "more relevant topics". Now, I'm not sure what's wrong. Perhaps it's your college that is awful. Perhaps you need a better school. As someone mentioned, undergraduate education is not Binary. There's a multitude of choices. Online schools, technical schools, community colleges, MIT, etc. Or, as Xai stated, if you DO go the degreeless route, you must be able to handle the fact that it will cost you some opportunities.

You also don't say why you're so hot to program. If, indeed, programming is your life, and all you desire and you eat, breathe and sleep programming, then you might want to switch to a school that's known for good bachelor degrees in Computer Science.

You've been thinking very hard and seem to have your mind made up that you want to quit and stay home, reading books. If you do that, you will need discipline beyond what college calls for, to not be tempted to sleep til noon, play games or watch TV all day.

Also, if you don't go to school, I'm assuming you'll get some kind of job to support yourself, so that will cut into your time. If you weren't planning on any kind of work during your "I can learn at home" phase, be aware that degreeless applicants to jobs will do far better if they have any kind of prior work experience. Having an employment gap in your resume would probably kill your opportunity.

A past co-worker of mine is quite outgoing and talkative but at the same time VERY independent and does not rely on others, except books, articles. It turns out he had a history:

That guy spent 4 miserable years in college in math/cs learning basics and mostly did not enjoy them.

Though not failing, withdrew for a semester junior year due to self insecurity and procrastination lead zombie/nocturnal life style.

Due to frustration and goallessness, withdrew after four years without a degree for good, though he was passing.

While staying home discovered interest for game dev and self studied what he like for a year.

Got a job in the industry subsequently and now with strong interest and motivation, actively study relevant math/algorithmic techniques.



While this is a success example, it doesn't mean others will succeed similarly. He is intelligent and attended brand name university to begin with.

The moral of his story is to discover and learn what interests and motivates you.

Part of my job in the IT industry is recuiting developers, and I can honestly say I don't interview anyone without a degree for an entry level position. There may well be better developers out there but having a degree is mark of maturity and accomplishment.

You will also find that you having a degree qualifies you for better jobs and better pay. Last remember that you maybe able to get a job without a degree initally you could find it very difficult to changes job later in life without it.

Quote: Original post by TechnoGoth
...There may well be better developers out there but having a degree is mark of maturity and accomplishment.

I guess you didn't know that, as of the 1st October this year, use of the term "Maturity" as a criterion for recruitment would be considered as discriminatory under the UK's new age discrimination laws.

thanks for the replies guys, ill post back here in a few years and tell you what happens :)

Quote: Original post by Obscure

Quote: Original post by TechnoGoth
...There may well be better developers out there but having a degree is mark of maturity and accomplishment.

I guess you didn't know that, as of the 1st October this year, use of the term "Maturity" as a criterion for recruitment would be considered as discriminatory under the UK's new age discrimination laws.

Ya, your right so is experince, junior, senior, and even asking how long they had their last job. So I should have said that having a degree is mark that they persona has the minimum level skill, ability, and commitment required for the position.

I personally don't like the new law, but then thats me.