If anyone is unfamiliar with the artwork in Final Fantasy VI that I was referring to, here's a link. I have forgotten his name, but he definitely commands my favorite style of art. Bouncer's work somewhat reminds me of this style.

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Original post by Kest Quote: Original post by Professor420 Quote: Original post by Kest There's no such thing as correct art. The fact that it is incorrect is what makes it art. A perfect rendering of reality would be a photo. A perfect rendering of anime would be a copy of someone else's style. The imperfections add to his style. If those imperfections conflict with other elements in his style, then that should be changed. But it's very difficult to determine how consistent his style is while only looking at this one image. I'm sorry, but that is absurd. Alright, I'm in the shield stance. Quote: but to say the renderings of a 12 year old who picks up a pencil is 'art' is an insult. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I literally thought the specific unique elements of this specific drawing added to it. Although it's possible that my opinion could be heavily influenced by nostalgia of my own past. Quote: You cannot POSSIBLY say someone who has no training and someone who has spent their life learning have the same artistic ability (that is, the experience with aethetic ideas and the ability to express them). A new type of artistic style may look erroneous to some viewers. Especially aspiring would-be artists who have worked their way up the artistic skill ladder by copying work from others. That is how I associate 'incorrect' with 'art'. A break from the standard. But I didn't claim anyone had reached any level of skill. Quote: NO artist from recorded history, to the best of my knowledge, suddenly picked up a tool as was considered skilled in art; it is not so in any other trade, why art? I'm honored that you were able to find so many hidden meanings in my small amount of text, but some of them seem materialized. Again, I did not imply anything about skill. Quote: All artists, no matter how stylized, know HOW to realistically represent their work, 'style' is something they develop to more powerfully convey their design. If they cannot realistically convey what they see, then how can they possibly UNrealistically convey it? It's much easier to start off with your own style than it is to create a new style after the mastery other styles. Extensive knowledge of other styles will build walls around your potential to be unique. Throw some children on a new planet and watch then create a brand new culture. Add their parents to teach them and you'll instead get a derived culture at best. A true scientist should research what others have done before coming up with new ideas. A true artist should do exactly the opposite. I've seen many styles of art with strange anatomy. Some of them I liked and some I didn't. I liked this one. Quote: Things like a non-articulated clavicle, poorly composed stomach material, and impossibly turns upper torso, and an improperly located left arm/shoulder do NOT enhance the picture. Or, perhaps, you can explain how they do It honestly doesn't look that bad to me. It's difficult to explain why I like it, because I don't see the same problems you seem to have with it. Quote: or bouncer can say why he made those intentional inaccuracies (which he has already stated are not intentional, as he is learning). I'm pretty sure you're mistaken: Quote: Original post by the_bouncer_2006 oh yeah ^_^. To let you know the distorted anatomy of the body is on purpose. Quote: But please, for the sake of art, do not call someone's inexperience style and do not call any scribble on a paper art. I think you're a little too crule and hostile my friend. It's obvious he's still learning, but I wouldn't call it scribble. I honestly believe his style will shine nicely if he keeps improving it. I apologize if I said anything to light a fire under your seat. It was far from my intention.

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I think you're a little too crule and hostile my friend. It's obvious he's still learning, but I wouldn't call it scribble. I honestly believe his style will shine nicely if he keeps improving it. I apologize if I said anything to light a fire under your seat. It was far from my intention.

No, his drawing is definately not scribble, I didn't mean to imply it was, and I only felt I could draw that final extreme because I earlier said: "there is most definately 'good' art and 'poor' art. the_bouncer's falls somewhere inbetween..." And, my entire point of these posts, is that if he can't draw accurately, his style will NEVER improve, it will never become a style and will always be a series of mistakes, because he won't know how to change anatomy, what to change, etc., in order to keep his design and style consistent.

Anyway, I only feel so strongly about this issue because the amount of coddling we give teenage/college people, especially artists, is sickening. Sometimes its good to be a bit stiff and harsh in your critiques, reward effort but always give a good critique. I would guarentee someone's skills improve more in their arts classes where the teacher pushes them and finds everything that works and doesn't work in their piece, rather than from a class whose instructor spends all their time finding how the student's sub-par work is its own style or why its so great (having had many of both, and seeing the results of my own and others work, I feel confident about this assertion). If the student could point out his own mistakes, he probably wouldn't do them, so why spend the time pointing out whats supposedly so unique and grand? Better commend him for the effort and improvment, but constantly point out errors and how to solve them, don't make excuses.

Well anyways like i said i know the anatomy of the body is off ^_^. I been drawing for about 7 years now. I am doing some art my own style so you can see i know how anatomy works ^_^. But i am doing this on purpose because i think FF art is pretty awesome. I take all constructive critisism because it helps me focus on details that i need to focus on ^_^. But for this style it allows someone to draw free and focus past minor details to construct there own visions ^_^. Everyone has an art style. And most japanese anime artist have there characters unrealistictly unproportioned. ^_^

No one is talking about proportions. The problem with your 'anatomy' is that things arn't in the right place.

Sure, in anime its fine to have people with ridiculosly long legs, big heads and huge eyes. However, you can't just ignore the fact that they are going to need a shoulder, or know how a shoulder works. You need to correctly be able to place a clavical and give the impression of a twist that is more realistic. Reguardless of anatomy, you need to learn perspective, nothing in your drawing is in the normal bounds of how we percive distance.

At the same time, if you want to call it 'style' your going to have to learn to portray more then anatomy. style is based on multiple elements; point of view, distortion and so forth; to do this you must employ methods to convey what your trying to get the viewer to see, this cannot be done through uniform thick lines and minimal, light source defying shading alone.

Quit pushing 'its how how I draw' and 'thats not a mistake, its a style' as excuses for your lack of artistic ability and start practicing.

Believe me its not a lack of artistic abilty. ^_^ i have won over 30 art competitions and i have all the trophies and certificates on my wall. So i do understand what i am doing and talking about. The problem with artist like you is you visualize one art stand point. And that is not either style or art. Art is something someone feels not something that comes out of a text book. Which is pretty much your art style( the way our describing it). I would rather try something new then do the same art style over and over again. Porportion is very easy.... But bending the body the way where it is unporportioned is very hard. But i am continuing with this art style because i been getting alot of great ups trying to master this style. I always take constructive critisim well, but your views are not constructive they are rude. I like what others have to say on here, but yours is rude i wasnt looking for good job comments, looking for constructive critisism......... not from someone who gets there art out of a text book and follows every single rule to be safe. ^_^ thats why i went outside of my safe guide lines to find something new that i enjoy drawing ^_^.

And yet despite these claims you have failed to show us that you ARE capable of realistic anatomy, proportions, and drawing. If anything, those links on your 'site' show either a complete copy of existing anime styles (as shown from things like the constant, formulaic clavicles, and the nearly identical amongst your females and the terribly deformed face of your single male), or a lack of anatomical understanding (bicep vs. tricep in your male character).
So, I ask again, if your anatomical impossibilities are intentional, WHAT is the reasoning behind them? WHY is her shoulder misplaced? WHY does her clavicle not deform? WHY is the man's tricep and bicep the same size and flex and location up the arm?

30 art awards, indeed. Perhaps you can upload some of these award-winning pieces so we can gaze upon their inspiring and enlightening beauty and perfection.

^_^

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Original post by the_bouncer_2006 Believe me its not a lack of artistic abilty. ^_^ i have won over 30 art competitions and i have all the trophies and certificates on my wall. So i do understand what i am doing and talking about. The problem with artist like you is you visualize one art stand point. And that is not either style or art. Art is something someone feels not something that comes out of a text book. Which is pretty much your art style( the way our describing it). I would rather try something new then do the same art style over and over again. Porportion is very easy.... But bending the body the way where it is unporportioned is very hard. But i am continuing with this art style because i been getting alot of great ups trying to master this style. I always take constructive critisim well, but your views are not constructive they are rude. I like what others have to say on here, but yours is rude i wasnt looking for good job comments, looking for constructive critisism......... not from someone who gets there art out of a text book and follows every single rule to be safe. ^_^ thats why i went outside of my safe guide lines to find something new that i enjoy drawing ^_^.

you're confusing what "art style" is. as the professor said, what are your reasons for the particular anatomy errors, if this truly is your style then you should have a reason behind the differences from other artist works and not just say "its my style".
as an example, when i model and texture environments they usually tend to have a survival-horror silent hill-ish look to them, the actual objects and textures are made correctly but they have a particular style to them. in otherwards a style only differentiates my work from others in terms of a certain look it has, however the actual creation of the models and textures are correctly done.
what you have is an incorrectly proportioned human with a standard style that i've seen many times.
however this advice is not to discourage you, but rather lead you in the right direction so you can improve instead of just ignoring your faults.

p.s. i understand how hard it is to get human proportions right.... try modelign them in 3d.

[Edited by - Jarrod1937 on September 21, 2006 1:29:29 PM]

I think the black and white pictures that you have done are quite good. I can definitely see the Final Fantasy influences.

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Original post by Professor420 And, my entire point of these posts, is that if he can't draw accurately, his style will NEVER improve

I think you've missed something on your way to this conclusion, which is a big deal if your entire point of posting is based on it. His style can definitely improve, even if he cannot currently draw accurately. If he is currently drawing innaccurately, shouldn't that show room for improvement?

Please don't use his 'ego' to warrant this claim. His ego was only brought to the table because of the swords and spikes being thrown at him. That's his version of my 'shield stance'.

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it will never become a style and will always be a series of mistakes, because he won't know how to change anatomy, what to change, etc., in order to keep his design and style consistent.

Perhaps your energy would be better spent teaching him than arguing about it.

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Anyway, I only feel so strongly about this issue because the amount of coddling we give teenage/college people, especially artists, is sickening.

No one should be coddled, but the opposite extreme is equally damaging.

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Sometimes its good to be a bit stiff and harsh in your critiques, reward effort but always give a good critique.

I don't agree that harshness should be part of the mix at all. It's completely unnesessary, and can cause more damage than coating with sugar. It will most usually lead to the artist wanting to defend themselves rather than wanting to correct mistakes. Instead of guiding them around an obstacle, you're knocking them out with it.

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I would guarentee someone's skills improve more in their arts classes where the teacher pushes them and finds everything that works and doesn't work in their piece, rather than from a class whose instructor spends all their time finding how the student's sub-par work is its own style or why its so great (having had many of both, and seeing the results of my own and others work, I feel confident about this assertion).

There's a huge degree of difference between pushing and punching. Perhaps you do have a great understanding of how to push artists to find the best result, but your plain simple human-understanding skills obviously need ..touching up. Perhaps it would be better to not bring one's own anguish to the table as a weapon to critique the art.

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Better commend him for the effort and improvment, but constantly point out errors and how to solve them, don't make excuses.

I didn't see any commending on your part. Just a lot of pointing. There is a lot of room for improvement, but I personally like the direction he's going with it.

I honestly dont see the point in arguing. If he has '30 art awards', then he has enough confidence in his work to leave us here bickering, having gotten the better of an uneducated crowd.

Otherwise, like we see 10 times a week, he;s another 13 year old kid without the patience to practice or the maturity to accept criticism.

If you post a WIP here, we will comment and critique it . If you do not want your work critiqued, do not post it. If you cannot take others individual opinions without arguing, do not post.

And, if you dont think that there are 3 people just like you in every art class I have ever taken, or 300 like you in every art forum you will ever visit, then you are wrong. Its a matter of maturity.

With reguard to style;

I am a graphics designer; I draw in any style someone asks, requests, or pays me for. style is highly subjective, but all based on the same foundational principals. Your work lacks that foundation, any foundation; therefore it is flawed, you must work harder, practice more and by all means, post more often, were always here to try and help, just dont come off like you think we are being close-minded instead of helpfull.

And for the love of intelligence, stop with the faces in your writing.

^-^