Yes, I believe the best SF and fantasy is created from real life analogues. I do not believe the best works out there gain inspiration from other SF and fantasy. In fact, I believe that using other SF and fantasy will in general serve to only propogate cliches. I can already sense some of you out there champing at the bit to disagree. Throw down your favorite SF works! Vanguish any fantasy works from your mind! Do you want to create truly memorable and inspiring works for others to covet? Look at real life. Look around you. Look at your daily life. Open a history book. Read a biography. Explore the world. Look at Dan Simmon's wonderful Hyperion series. How did he build such a fantastic world? He took elements from everyday life and history and molded them into a futuristic world. Hyperion is a world of fishermen, derigibles, Catholics and archeology digs. Simmon's universe features poets, detectives and priests. Look at the detective in his story: she has an office, waits for clients to walk in, and does investigation. Sound like real life? Yes. And he adds the grittiness and style you would expect with detective work. This is SF at its best. Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series has parallels from history. One of its main themes, of course, is colonization. But he focuses on the characters which bring the colonization to fruition. It reads almost like a soap opera, but a fascinating one. And the imagery in the book is beautiful. For example, some colonists built architecure right into the sides of giant cliffs. Shades of Anasazi cliff dwellings? Perhaps. Ender's Game was a truly original work and a classic. But look at the elements in the story. Ender competes in competitive training games that are not unlike hockey or football. Another focus of the book is on sibling rivalries and psychotic disorders. Forget the dragon. Or at least how it has been conveyed to you in other fantasy novels. Think again, and look at our own world for ideas. The eagle or lion could serve as the foundation for a creature that breaks the mold. Use not necessarily the physical details of these creatures, but their demeanor and behavior. Landfish says you should write about what you know. He is absolutely correct. How much do you know about fantasy? Tough question, becasue it isn't even real. But you do know about real life. Draw from that which you are intimately familiar. Build characters, settings, and situations which have an analogue in your world. Mold that into a fantasy world. Sunandshadow is fond of the idea of bodysculpting in a futuristic world. This could be dull or fascinating, depending on how it is done. Today's equivalents are liposuction, implants, and plastic surgery. Learn about these. Visualize the finer nuances of such concepts and carry them forward: suave but greedy doctors, disgruntled patients arguing with receptionists, liposuction turning fatal, and women discussing whether to get yet another facelift. The character and spirit of these ideas can make a futuristic rendition of it more entertaining and real. Build on what you are an expert on in real life. Do not fake it and do not copy it. Edited by - bishop_pass on March 1, 2001 10:07:12 PM

Amen, brother!

Knock-off scifi and knock-off fantasy are just not going to get you anywhere interesting. I''d say that this goes more so for scifi, though, because people seem to be happy in fantasy games that emulate Tolkien. Thankfully, there''s no such dynasty in scifi (star-wars is as close as it gets).

I will say, regarding modeling your scifi on reality, you can''t do a direct translation. That is, there has to be something original, or something people fear, or something that changes it. Not many people really want to just hear about the life of the future unless there''s something supporting it. However, that doesn''t change the point of scifi from reality.

You can think of scifi worlds as the "reference" from which to look at reality. By changing this or that, but leaving the rest of it basically the same you can tell stories that are less cluttered by a lot of parts of reality that just get in the way of the point.

I can''t think of any great scifi where the point of the story was the technology, with the exception of the Asimov robot series, though that in itself is debatable.

-ben.c

You were right, from the first paragraph I was champing at the bit to disagree.

First, I'd like to point out that my bodysculpting stuff is based not on cosmetic surgery, but on the pygmalion myth and an existing fantasy novel, _Biting the Sun_ by Tanith Lee. "Suave but greedy doctors, disgruntled patients arguing with receptionists, liposuction turning fatal, and women discussing whether to get yet another facelift..." - Ick. That's exactly what I would never want to write or read, both because it's boringly close to reality and because who wants to read about boring and disgruntled people anyway? I don't know about you guys, but I want to read about smart, cheerful, playful, schemeing, in love people. I didn't like the worldbuilding in Hyperion (although the tree-ships were kinda cool) and Ender's Game really does not have very original worldbuilding, although it tells a good story and is thought-provoking.

My advice (as a Junior majoring in English) would be this: to write good fantasy and science fiction you have to understand people, character dynamic, and sociology. All of this must be learned at least partially from real life. To build good worlds, on the other hand, you have to understand sociology (again), genetics, economics, but most espicially HISTORY. You have to see the patterns of social evolution in order to plug your own variables into the patterns and generate original, coherent sociocultures.

For example, have you ever heard of the touring mystery play cycles that existed in England in the 1700's? If not, check it out. From learning about that, doing some research on matriarchies, and from the memory of reading a romance novel set partially in a finishing school in the early 1900's, I came up with the idea of a male-exogamous society (i.e. the males leave their birth clan to marry females in different clans) where adolescent males attend a finishing school of sorts and, at graduation, put on a traditional play cycle as part of showing off for their potential mates and mates' parents. I think that's damn original. You just have to know when to use an established trope, when to twist a trope, and when to use something new to the genre ar perhaps completely new (presuming you could find such a thing as a completely new idea, they're about as rare as 4-leaf clovers).

Not to mention that by directing people not to look at what's already been written you prevent them from using the wonderfully rich and powerful resource of mythology.

As for dragons - While we all know the world could use fewer teenagers trying to write AD&D and Forgotten Realms take-offs, one of my favorite stories I've written features people who geneticly engineer themselves into bipedal dragons and then have to deal with adapting to this form. You find me a story where that's been done and I'll eat a copy of my manuscript.

Edited by - sunandshadow on March 2, 2001 3:43:05 PM

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

First, I'd like to point out that my bodysculpting stuff is based not on cosmetic surgery, but on the pygmalion myth and an existing fantasy novel, _Biting the Sun_ by Tanith Lee.

Your bodysculpting stuff is based on an existing fantasy novel? But that is what I said not to do! And to think I thought it was an original idea of yours. Curious, I just read some reviews of Tanith Lee's Biting the Sun and discovered some parallels with your Mall of the Future world. Hmmm. But the most interesting thing of all that I picked up in the review was that the story focused around one individual who didn't care for living in this society. Maybe I should read this book.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

... yet another facelift..." - Ick. That's exactly what I would never want to write or read, both because it's boringly close to reality and because who wants to read about boring and disgruntled people anyway?

Sunandshadow, I didn't ask you to write a story about boring and disgruntled people. These are concepts to flesh out your hopefully already developed world. The details help to make the world more rich and interesting. As your character walks down the street, she notes with amusement the discussion between two women standing on a corner, and so on. Real life provides the nuances to enrich your worlds.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

I don't know about you guys, but I want to read about smart, cheerful, playful, schemeing, in love people.

Well, I can certainly say that most likeable characters in most novels have four out of five of those qualities.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

I didn't like the worldbuilding in Hyperion (although the tree-ships were kinda cool) and Ender's Game really does not have very original worldbuilding, although it tells a good story and is thought-provoking.

I'm glad to hear you've read them anyway. What about Kim Stanley Robinson? And, have you read Phiip Jose Farmer's To Your Scattered Bodies Go ?

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

My advice (as a Junior majoring in English) would be this: to write good fantasy and science fiction you have to understand people, character dynamic, and sociology. All of this must be learned at least partially from real life.

Absolutely! But not partially from real life. More like mostly. But I would go further, and say that you are better off translating personal experiences into your worlds. It is here where you have the opportunity to excel. Whatever it is you've done, you know well. For a task or situation you have experienced, you will know the thought processes, the things which irritate while performing, and the things which your mind is attuned to. Armed with this experience, you can convey these feelings with art and expertise where another author can only fake it.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

To build good worlds, on the other hand, you have to understand sociology (again), genetics, economics, but most espicially HISTORY. You have to see the patterns of social evolution in order to plug your own variables into the patterns and generate original, coherent sociocultures.

Of course! And I said as much in my first post. Read history. Read biographies. Experience life.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Not to mention that by directing people not to look at what's already been written you prevent them from using the wonderfully rich and powerful resource of mythology.

But I did not direct people to not look at what's written. I said don't use SF and fantasy for your SF and fantasy ideas. Real life does provide what you need. Also, as you have said, history, mythology, etc.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

You find me a story where that's been done and I'll eat a copy of my manuscript.

Well, I can always look. I hope you like the taste of paper and ink.




Edited by - bishop_pass on March 3, 2001 1:51:38 AM

Mmmmmh, usually I like to be verbose, but on this one I''ll keep it short :
Can you spell cyberpunk ? Well, that''s exactly what you are on about. Read William Gibson and you''ll see
All his books are "not so far into the future", most of the concepts he explores are very much based on existing things, only pushed a bit further. The most "sci-fi" concepts he develops is the nanotechnology, and even then, it''s a mysterious technology most of the time military, and illegal in most countries.

There is something really exciting about reading about things you know already exist in a primal phase, and see how they could realistically evolve in, say, the next ten years.

I love William Gibson

youpla :-P


Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

quote: Original post by bishop_pass
Your bodysculpting stuff is based on an existing fantasy novel? But that is what I said not to do!

Yes, that''s why I mentioned it. I feel that not only is it worthwhile to write original things, it''s also worthwhile to write about not-so-original things if you think you can do it better/differently/more deeply than it has yet been done.

quote:
And to think I thought it was an original idea of yours. Curious, I just read some reviews of Tanith Lee''s Biting the Sun and discovered some parallels with your Mall of the Future world. Hmmm. But the most interesting thing of all that I picked up in the review was that the story focused around one individual who didn''t care for living in this society. Maybe I should read this book.

That''s probably because the bodysculpting stuff is in my Mall of the future world. _Biting the Sun_ actually has only one very short shopping scene utterly different in purpose from what I''m imagining doing with the Mall. If yu''d like my opinion on whether or not to red the book, I would say that while the worldbuilding is interesting (if very shallowly explored), the moral of the main character''s disgruntlement is pretty cheesy - he/she is essentially an angstful teenager with ennui who suffers because she has no notion of how to keep herself amused.

quote:
Sunandshadow, I didn''t ask you to write a story about boring and disgruntled people. These are concepts to flesh out your hopefully already developed world. The details help to make the world more rich and interesting. As your character walks down the street, she notes with amusement the discussion between two women standing on a corner, and so on. Real life provides the nuances to enrich your worlds.

Oh, well that I agree with. On the other hand, I''ve seen science fiction that in the name of realism is deliberately written about boring and disgruntled people - the result is rather horrifing, a complete travesty of the way speculative fiction is supposed to inspire ''sense of wonder''; it can be joyful or warm and fuzzy or proud or horrific, but still it must be wondorous.

quote:
I''m glad to hear you''ve read them anyway. What about Kim Stanley Robinson? And, have you read Phiip Jose Farmer''s To Your Scattered Bodies Go ?

I didn''t read the Mars things, they looked boring (mileage varies, of course). I did read the Farmer; good worldbuiding, interesting characters, if a bit shallowly done, but horrendous plotting. I preferred Dayworld, actually. I''m guessing that you''re trying to figure out what I think is great writing, so I''ll oblige with my ''greats'' list:
_Cyteen_ by C. J. Cherryh
_The Unlimited Dream Company_ by J. G. Ballard
_Dhalgren_ by Samuel R. Delaney
_Xenogenesis_ aka _Lillith''s Brood_ by Octavia E. Butler
_Ender''s Game_ by Orson Scott Card
_In Conquest Born_ by C. S. Friedman
_Voyager in Night_ by C. J. Cherryh
and a ''could-have-been great-if-it-had-a-real-plot'':
the _Sugar Rain_ trilogy by Paul Park

Original post by sunandshadow

My advice (as a Junior majoring in English) would be this: to write good fantasy and science fiction you have to understand people, character dynamic, and sociology. All of this must be learned at least partially from real life.
Original pst by Bishop_Pass
Absolutely! But not partially from real life. More like mostly.

The reason I say partially is that it''s easier to isolate the elements of fiction for your own future use than it is to isolate these elements in a real-life experience. It''s efficient to learn the pattern for each of these elements picking apart a book in English class then use real life experiences to invent original instances of the pattern.

quote:
Original post by Bishop_Pass
But I would go further, and say that you are better off translating personal experiences into your worlds. It is here where you have the opportunity to excel. Whatever it is you''ve done, you know well. For a task or situation you have experienced, you will know the thought processes, the things which irritate while performing, and the things which your mind is attuned to. Armed with this experience, you can convey these feelings with art and expertise where another author can only fake it.

I really don''t know why I''m not connecting with that statement. Possibly because I''ve always been one to learn from others experience before I have the need to learn from my own, and more than half the knowledge I have is theoretical. Perhaps because only something I don''t fully understand is interesting enough to me that I would want to write about it. I once had a teacher assure me I''d write much deeper fiction after someone close to me died. How''s that for morbid? Maybe she''s right, but I don''t want to find out. I''m a very placid-tempermented person, and I don''t put value on the memory of a task that was irritating to preform. Whether I''m reading or writing, I like the writing to be like looking at something brand new, not something I have expertise about. I don''t know.

At any rate, I still think it''s legitimate and useful to look at existing f&sf for worldbuilding ideas, as long as you don''t use them without changing them a bit.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

... is supposed to inspire 'sense of wonder'; it can be joyful or warm and fuzzy or proud or horrific, but still it must be wondorous.

That, of course, sums up the whole point of my adventures. But that's another topic...

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

I'm guessing that you're trying to figure out what I think is great writing, so I'll oblige with my 'greats' list:
_Cyteen_ by C. J. Cherryh
_The Unlimited Dream Company_ by J. G. Ballard
_Dhalgren_ by Samuel R. Delaney
_Xenogenesis_ aka _Lillith's Brood_ by Octavia E. Butler
_Ender's Game_ by Orson Scott Card
_In Conquest Born_ by C. S. Friedman
_Voyager in Night_ by C. J. Cherryh
and a 'could-have-been great-if-it-had-a-real-plot':
the _Sugar Rain_ trilogy by Paul Park

I havn't read any of those, except Ender's Game . So you want my list of 'greats'? Well, maybe I wouldn't call them all 'greats' but they stick in my mind, anyway. I really enjoyed David Brin's Startide Rising and The Uplift War . In addition to Ender's Game I enjoyed Card's Speaker for the Dead . Larry Niven's Ringworld and The Legacy of Heorot were good. A truly excellent book, and one you might really like is John Varley's Titan . Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure was just plain fun. And I must say I really enjoyed Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep . Robert Holdstock's The Mythago Wood was good too. Of course Hyperion , the Mars thing, and the Riverworld thing are among my favorites too. There are others too, like Mike Resnick's Santiago and Gordon Dickson's Way of the Pilgrim , which incidentally, was a truly dismal and depressing story if ever there was one.

The thing is, there's so many others that I just can't even remember from years ago. Lots of fantasy too, like Robert Jordan, Terry Brooks, Raymond Feist and Tolkien too.

But what about crossover and even mainstream? If you're going to take your inspiration from fiction, what about these? Believe it or not, Dean Koontz's Strangers is really good, maybe rivaling Stephen King's The Stand in scope. And while on the subject of Koontz, you might argue that his Intensity does not convey a grand 'sense of wonder', but if you've read it, you can't deny that it evokes one powerful surge of adrenaline from start to finish.

You may notice that none of my SF & F favorites are by female authors, (I don't know why, I just havn't read them I guess) but I enjoy several mainstream female authors. I have a feeling you may like Barbara Michaels; Houses of Stone is good. Tess Gerittsen is really good, and her works come around to reinforce my viewpoint that real experiences translate to strong writing. Likewise with Patricia Cornwell. I'm having a tough time visualizing your reaction to Cornwell's fictional character, Dr. Kay Scarpetta though. And Lucy, Kay's niece.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

The reason I say partially is that it's easier to isolate the elements of fiction for your own future use than it is to isolate these elements in a real-life experience. It's efficient to learn the pattern for each of these elements picking apart a book in English class then use real life experiences to invent original instances of the pattern.

But this seems so... studious and clinical. Where is the passion? To me, the real life experience provides all the subtle aspects that you just can't derive from examination of an existing text.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

I really don't know why I'm not connecting with that statement. Possibly because I've always been one to learn from others experience before I have the need to learn from my own, and more than half the knowledge I have is theoretical.

But doesn't theory only go so far? Isn't it just the starting point? Ever try to apply theory? Sure, I could explain to you the process of climbing the granite face of an alpine crag. And I could even tell you what to expect and what it might feel like. But how far will this theoretical knowledge actually take you? And as a writer, would you know what to convey? At the very least, you would need to do some interviews.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Perhaps because only something I don't fully understand is interesting enough to me that I would want to write about it.

To me, it would be that which I understand and feel passionate about that would be rewarding to write about.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

I once had a teacher assure me I'd write much deeper fiction after someone close to me died. How's that for morbid? Maybe she's right, but I don't want to find out.

I may have heard that before, I don't know. I do know that I can convey just what it feels like (having experienced it) to have someone close to you die. And I can say there are very definitely feelings of great loss, not only for you, but empathy for the one who dies. I can also say the last moments you had with that person will always be there with you. The tone of that moment can be very poignant.



Edited by - bishop_pass on March 5, 2001 12:22:56 AM

Okay, I''m back from spring break and it''s time to use your writing to support your opinions! Here is the beginning of an original piece of fantasy. How would you use real-life experience to improve it?




The playful summer breeze caressed me as I sat on the broad lowest limb of a grandmotherly tree, contemplating the moon. It was a peculiar moon, hanging huge and smoky orange just above the horizon. Really, it looked not so muck like a moon as like a perfect circle of white paper through which one could catch a glimpse of some celestial campfire. It was full dark an hour past, and the full panoply of stars spangled the sky, although the faintest few were drowned out by the moon’s radiance. The night was lovely and very lonely.

I toyed with my howl-flute, but did not put it to my lips – I was to disgusted with the way my life was going to feel like making sweet melody. The source of my disgust was simple: I was having absolutely no luck seducing a wolf. Here I was, full 18 years old, and more clueless than some toddlers who my wolf-other would be. In my more pessimistic moments I was sure I would have to live out my days as a full human, like old Stars.

It just didn’t make sense! I was the best young howl-flute player in the pack, already learning to play the intricate Nightmusic; I was caring and creative and very smart (if with no modesty whatsoever); and not only did the wolves not come courting me, they ignored me when I came, flute-in-hand, to court them! Even my parents, when they were in wolf form, ignored me. Well, not quite all the wolves ignored me. Stormwind was perhaps my best friend, she hung around with me a lot, but I couldn’t court her because she was, after all, a she, and a he-human has to bond with a he-wolf. I sighed and shook my head mournfully.

“Who are you saying ‘no’ to, Sassafras?” asked Stormwind, almost scaring me out of my tree. She padded silently out into the moonlight – I could tell from the spring in her step that she was laughing at me.

“Just myself. Now please pardon me while I stuff my heart back into my chest, you scared it out and now it’s hiding around here somewhere.” I patted around on the tree branch in mock search.

“Lemme see….” * sniff sniff * “Aha, here it is, hiding in the grass.” She reached down as if to pick up the imaginary heart in her mouth. * mmph mmph gulp * “Oops. I swallowed it. Now you have to go around being heartless.” She sounded so remorseful that I cracked up in spite of myself.

“Yep,” I chuckled, “I guess so.” I scooted over, being careful not to scrape myself on the rough bark. She jumped up on the branch beside me and I gave her a big hug around the neck.

“How’s my favorite cub?” she asked. Now Stormwind is only a year older than me, but she’s always liked to rub that fact in.

“Oh, without a wolf-other, as usual, and now heartless, but other than that pretty good. You?”

“Still haven’t found a human worth courting, but I’m feeling good because I’ve just had a nice ‘hearty’ meal.”

“Okay, that’s quite enough. Seriously, Stormwind, can you think of anything to help me? Why do all the wolves except you ignore me?”

“Do they really ignore you? Maybe they’re just busy with their own business.”

“Well it seems like they ignore me. You would think at least the unbonded males our age would think I was interesting.”

“I dunno. You smell plenty interesting to me.”

“Oh, now I’m heartless and I stink, huh? I guess I’ll go jump in the river.”

“I wasn’t teasing – I meant that that scent that you always have, the smell that means ‘you’, is interesting.”

“Oh. Thanks.”

“You’re welcome.”

“Um… well anyway, do you think I might be playing the courting song wrong?”

The courting song was the primary reason for carving and learning how to play a howl-flute. Mankind’s partnership with wolves began when a man heard the cry of a lonely she-wolf and carved flute after flute until one could match the sound.

He learned to play the she-wolf’s courting song better than the she-wolf could sing it, and when a he-wolf came to investigate and reply in kind it was the man he followed the song to. Caught up in the music, the man and the wolf courted each other, and when the wolf approached near enough to touch the man the magic of the song melted the two together into one lycanthrope.

When a woman courts her wolf-other she must use a different type of howl-flute, one that mimics the deeper voice of a he-wolf. And correspondingly, the courting song she plays is that of a he-wolf. The two versions of the song are the two parts of a duet, and it is only when they are sung together that magic things happen.

“Do you think that could be it Stormwind? Do you think I’m playing the courting song wrong?”

“I suppose it’s possible. Play it for me and I’ll tell you how it sounds.”

Knowing that I had a sympathetic audience made me feel more like playing. I put the flute to my lips and poured my soul into the music. Stormwind started howling along, also singing the she-wolf’s part, of course. I compared my song to hers and they matched well enough. When the song was over Stormwind pronounced my effort perfectly acceptable. So much for that as a possible cause of my difficulties.

“You know,” ruminated Stormwind, with a dreamy look on her face, “it’s a shame neither of us knows the male part of that song. I’ve never actually heard the two parts together, because they’re only played that way in private you know. I’m curious what the duet would sound like.”

“Yeah, I’ve never heard the parts together either. But you couldn’t sing the male part anyway, your voice is too high.”

“You could play it, if you had the other type of howl-flute.” I could indeed, I realized. Suddenly what had been idle speculation leapt into the realm of the possible. But if I played the courting duet with Stormwind… what would happen? Would I bond with her? But she was female… Maybe nothing would happen. Maybe I would suddenly find myself sharing a form with a female wolf-other – a disquieting idea. A male mind and a female one trapped in the same body might result in madness. And anyway, Stormwind had just been joking.

To cut the conversation off before it got any weirder, I said, “But I don’t have the other kind of howl-flute, and even if I did I still wouldn’t know the part.” Not that I couldn’t convince someone to teach it to me…

“Yeah, I guess you’re right. Hey, I’m hungry. If you scare a rabbit my way I’ll share it with you. And you can get some raspberries for us because you can keep your fingers away from the thorns that would tear my poor nose.” Stormwind was a sucker for raspberries – more than once she had scratched herself up getting some, until she figured out that, be it for trade or by flattery, she could usually talk me into getting some for her.

“Sounds good to me, Stormwind. And you dig up some yams and I’ll make a fire to bake them and roast the rabbit.” I put all thoughts of courting out of my mind and we set about getting ourselves some dinner.








In reply to other stuff:
I like Varley when he''s not depressing, Vance when he''s not sexist, and Vinge when he''s not writing about humans. I don''t read horror because I''ve just never enjoyed that genre, and when I read crossover or mainstream it''s usually assigned for class, about queer stuff, and/or a romance. By romance I do not mean those awful formula things written for someone with an IQ of 100 - I try to read ones by authors who have written other types of fiction, ones that have been published by presses that don''t specialize in romances, or fanfic available on the net.

About male/female authors - I''ve often noticed that people tend to like either mostly male or mostly female writers. Possibly because women tend to write character-based fiction and men tend to write plot-based fiction. Most of the ones I like are female, but that''s mostly because I would rather get to know people than hear about someone''s adventure. Interestingly, fiction that is primarily based on world-building seems to be split evenly between the two genders, and I really like a book with deep worldbuilding.

Where is the passion in analysing works of fiction in the classroom? Well, perhaps you''re not the type of person who enjoys taking apart an appliance or dissecting an animal, but I enjoy that type of thing - it''s marvelous to isolate the orderly patterns that make complicated things work. I always need to know how things work, fiction included, and I think it''s quite an adventure to go digging in and come out with a pattern that was waiting in there like buried treasure for you to find it.

About theory - I have never done an interview for any of my writing, the idea kind of puzzles me. I''ve asked someone how a person with their type of mind would react to situation X, but almost universally they have no idea how they would react because they''re not writers and they can''t really imagine the situation without a lot more help. Essentially, no one knows about most of what I''m writing about, so what would an interview accomplish. Also, I''ve always been the kind of person who could take theoretical knowledge and use it as if it were experiential knowledge and make that work. Sure things occasionally blow up in my face, but usually things go smoothly.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

I once had a teacher assure me I''d write much deeper fiction after someone close to me died. How''s that for morbid? Maybe she''s right, but I don''t want to find out.

quote: Original post by bishop_pass
I may have heard that before, I don''t know. I do know that I can convey just what it feels like (having experienced it) to have someone close to you die. And I can say there are very definitely feelings of great loss, not only for you, but empathy for the one who dies. I can also say the last moments you had with that person will always be there with you. The tone of that moment can be very poignant.

I think her point was that I am very self-centered/self-sufficient and I needed a shock to make me realize how important the people in my life really are.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Okay, I'm back from spring break and it's time to use your writing to support your opinions! Here is the beginning of an original piece of fantasy. How would you use real-life experience to improve it?

So now you're going to put my theories to the test, are you?

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
The playful summer breeze caressed me as I sat on the broad lowest limb of a grandmotherly tree, contemplating the moon. It was a peculiar moon, hanging huge and smoky orange just above the horizon. Really, it looked not so much like a moon as like a perfect circle of white paper through which one could catch a glimpse of some celestial campfire. It was full dark an hour past, and the full panoply of stars spangled the sky, although the faintest few were drowned out by the moon’s radiance. The night was lovely and very lonely.

Okay, I know you're going to accuse me here of being nit-picky and maybe too technically minded, but from experience and knowledge I can make the following observations. I'm not necessarily saying this will improve the story (which is pretty good), but I'll note them anyway, because you're asking for real life experience.

Experience with outdoor photography and hiking by moonlight has made me aware of these things. If it's full dark an hour past, the sun has set nearly two hours ago. If the moon is a perfect circle, it is full, and must be exactly 180 degrees opposite the sun which means it must be two hours above the horizon. Now, you have it just above the horizon. I warned you I was going to be nit-picky. You also have it a smokey orange, which would be correct if it was just above the horizon because of the atmospheric scattering of blue light, leaving orangish hues. You then go on to say it is a perfect circle of white paper. I thought it was orange! Ah, I see, it's backlit by a celestial campfire. So maybe it's crepe paper.

Now, we have a full panapoly of stars spangled across the sky. This is good imagery, I will agree. But a panapoly to me implies a swath, which in turn implies something like the Milky Way. To really see and appreciate the Milky Way, you need a thin atmosphere and an absence of other light, which we have except for that big glaring moon. But we have a warm breeze this evening, which implies a thicker atmosphere, and that of course hinders our view of all those lovely stars.

But the imagery was so good! What are we to do? We can save some of our tricks for later use in the story. Perhaps later, during a night with no moon, we could have a sky ablaze with the light of a billion stars. Right now, to keep that orange moon near the horizon, we could have a darkening glow of light in the sky behind us as the moon slowly rises above the plains.

Now, about that pleasant breeze caressing our face. Maybe it's rustling the leaves of the tree as Stormwind sits on her haunches behind us eavesdropping on our friend.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
I toyed with my howl-flute, but did not put it to my lips – I was to disgusted with the way my life was going to feel like making sweet melody. The source of my disgust was simple: I was having absolutely no luck seducing a wolf. Here I was, full 18 years old, and more clueless than some toddlers who my wolf-other would be. In my more pessimistic moments I was sure I would have to live out my days as a full human, like old Stars.

There are some serious Native American themes going on here. The symbols are all here. A full moon, an affinity with the wolf, a flute and a ritual with the flute, an old character named Stars, and a wolf named Stormwind. If you have not already drawn from real life rather than existing fantasy, you might as well start researching Native American history, their cultures, shamans, rituals, symbols, and lifestyles just to get more ideas.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
“Who are you saying ‘no’ to, Sassafras?” asked Stormwind, almost scaring me out of my tree. She padded silently out into the moonlight – I could tell from the spring in her step that she was laughing at me.

“Just myself. Now please pardon me while I stuff my heart back into my chest, you scared it out and now it’s hiding around here somewhere.” I patted around on the tree branch in mock search.

“Lemme see….” * sniff sniff * “Aha, here it is, hiding in the grass.” She reached down as if to pick up the imaginary heart in her mouth. * mmph mmph gulp * “Oops. I swallowed it. Now you have to go around being heartless.” She sounded so remorseful that I cracked up in spite of myself.

Let's look at our friend Stormwind. What do we know about her? What do we want to know about her to better describe her? I would think we would want to know a lot about wolves in general. How they look, behave, walk, and so on. I would try to find a zoo that had wolves and go there and watch them. I would study their mannerisms and style of movement.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
“Yep,” I chuckled, “I guess so.” I scooted over, being careful not to scrape myself on the rough bark. She jumped up on the branch beside me and I gave her a big hug around the neck.

“How’s my favorite cub?” she asked. Now Stormwind is only a year older than me, but she’s always liked to rub that fact in.

“Oh, without a wolf-other, as usual, and now heartless, but other than that pretty good. You?”

“Still haven’t found a human worth courting, but I’m feeling good because I’ve just had a nice ‘hearty’ meal.”

Now's about the time to take a break from the conversation and describe any changes to the environment, don't you think? The sky has darkened some more, and the moon has risen some, becoming a little brighter and luminous. Perhaps a shooting star streaks across the sky. This vision comes from my experience out in the High Sierra, where I witnessed a shooting star about every minute or so one evening.

Is there a lake nearby? As the light breeze stirs ripples in the water, the moonlight shimmers off the lake's surface. Just an idea, anyway. Once again, I'm drawing from imagery in my mind based on personal experiences outdoors with moonlit landscapes.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
In reply to other stuff:
I don't read horror because I've just never enjoyed that genre, and when I read crossover or mainstream it's usually assigned for class, about queer stuff, and/or a romance. By romance I do not mean those awful formula things written for someone with an IQ of 100 - I try to read ones by authors who have written other types of fiction, ones that have been published by presses that don't specialize in romances, or fanfic available on the net.

But Koontz's Strangers isn't really horror like you think it is. And his Intensity is like a brief break from other fare in order to go for a major and harrowing ride. As for romance, Barbara Michaels always throws a good dose of romance into her haunted mysteries.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
About male/female authors - I've often noticed that people tend to like either mostly male or mostly female writers. Possibly because women tend to write character-based fiction and men tend to write plot-based fiction. Most of the ones I like are female, but that's mostly because I would rather get to know people than hear about someone's adventure.

Patricia Cornwell's fiction is certainly character-based. My two sisters and my friend Wayne all enjoy Cornwell's work which revolves around her Scarpetta character.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Where is the passion in analysing works of fiction in the classroom? Well, perhaps you're not the type of person who enjoys taking apart an appliance or dissecting an animal, but I enjoy that type of thing - it's marvelous to isolate the orderly patterns that make complicated things work.

Well, I haven't dissected too many animals this week, but I do enjoy analyzing the way things work, whether it be an engine, a business model, a computer graphics algorithm, or the creative methods a photographer applies to create evocative imagery. Certainly good writing is worthy of dissection too.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
About theory - I have never done an interview for any of my writing, the idea kind of puzzles me. I've asked someone how a person with their type of mind would react to situation X, but almost universally they have no idea how they would react because they're not writers and they can't really imagine the situation without a lot more help. Essentially, no one knows about most of what I'm writing about, so what would an interview accomplish. Also, I've always been the kind of person who could take theoretical knowledge and use it as if it were experiential knowledge and make that work. Sure things occasionally blow up in my face, but usually things go smoothly.

You are simply denying yourself one of the best resources an author can make use of. You shouldn't ask how someone would react to X, but how they did react to X. In other words, ask those who have experienced it. Actually, many know about what you are writing about. If they don't, then they will find it too difficult to relate to. Ultimately, all writing should be about the human condition, emotion, life, death, the physical, and so on.



Edited by - bishop_pass on March 12, 2001 1:09:27 AM

quote: Original post by bishop_pass

Okay, I know you''re going to accuse me here of being nit-picky and maybe too technically minded, but from experience and knowledge I can make the following observations. I''m not necessarily saying this will improve the story (which is pretty good), but I''ll note them anyway, because you''re asking for real life experience.

Experience with outdoor photography and hiking by moonlight has made me aware of these things. If it''s full dark an hour past, the sun has set nearly two hours ago. If the moon is a perfect circle, it is full, and must be exactly 180 degrees opposite the sun which means it must be two hours above the horizon. Now, you have it just above the horizon. I warned you I was going to be nit-picky. You also have it a smokey orange, which would be correct if it was just above the horizon because of the atmospheric scattering of blue light, leaving orangish hues. You then go on to say it is a perfect circle of white paper. I thought it was orange! Ah, I see, it''s backlit by a celestial campfire. So maybe it''s crepe paper.

Hmm, well I saw such a moon, but I don''t know how much "two hours above the horizon" is. It was below the level of the tallest trees, I figured that was just above the horizon. I was actually thinking of a white oriental paper screen, but waxed paper or crepe paper would also look like that.

quote:
Now, we have a full panapoly of stars spangled across the sky. This is good imagery, I will agree. But a panapoly to me implies a swath, which in turn implies something like the Milky Way. To really see and appreciate the Milky Way, you need a thin atmosphere and an absence of other light, which we have except for that big glaring moon. But we have a warm breeze this evening, which implies a thicker atmosphere, and that of course hinders our view of all those lovely stars.

Oh, I didn''t think of that. I''ll just use a different word. Maybe "the sky was richly spangled with stars".

quote:
But the imagery was so good! What are we to do? We can save some of our tricks for later use in the story. Perhaps later, during a night with no moon, we could have a sky ablaze with the light of a billion stars. Right now, to keep that orange moon near the horizon, we could have a darkening glow of light in the sky behind us as the moon slowly rises above the plains.

Thank you

quote: There are some serious Native American themes going on here. The symbols are all here. A full moon, an affinity with the wolf, a flute and a ritual with the flute, an old character named Stars, and a wolf named Stormwind. If you have not already drawn from real life rather than existing fantasy, you might as well start researching Native American history, their cultures, shamans, rituals, symbols, and lifestyles just to get more ideas.

I know lots about Native Americans. I could see that in the story although that wasn''t actually what I was trying for. I was thinking of Wendy and Richard Pini''s _Elfquest_

quote: Let''s look at our friend Stormwind. What do we know about her? What do we want to know about her to better describe her? I would think we would want to know a lot about wolves in general. How they look, behave, walk, and so on. I would try to find a zoo that had wolves and go there and watch them. I would study their mannerisms and style of movement.

oh, good idea, I forgot to describe her! Again, I already know a good deal about wolves from previous research and observation. I wrote a paper on Lycanthropy a few semesters ago, and I''ve read various Jack Londons and _Julie of the Wolves_ and watched the discovery channel. But if I found or drew a picture of Stormwind that could be helpful.

quote: Now''s about the time to take a break from the conversation and describe any changes to the environment, don''t you think? The sky has darkened some more, and the moon has risen some, becoming a little brighter and luminous. Perhaps a shooting star streaks across the sky. This vision comes from my experience out in the High Sierra, where I witnessed a shooting star about every minute or so one evening.

Again, a great idea, I''ll do that. The moon has turned white because it''s not being hit by light refracted through the atmosphere anymore, right?

Maybe I''ll make you a deal - you read a book off my list, I''ll read a book off your list?

quote: You are simply denying yourself one of the best resources an author can make use of. You shouldn''t ask how someone would react to X, but how they did react to X. In other words, ask those who have experienced it. Actually, many know about what you are writing about. If they don''t, then they will find it too difficult to relate to. Ultimately, all writing should be about the human condition, emotion, life, death, the physical, and so on.

Well, one of the points of the kind of fiction I write is to give the reader a new thought or feeling. All right, let''s try the interview your way: "So, how did you react when you were standing on the alien paradise planet and a dragon swooped at you?" Now, I know that''s not what you meant. But it also illustrates my difficulty: usually the situations where I need to know how someone will react are extreme situations, and usually the people I know haven''t been in any version of that kind of extreme situation, so they really don''t know how they would react.