Here we go: I'd like some suggestions on how I can improve this. I keep getting the feeling that I'm missing something...(Other than the names of half the gods) Three 'realms' - Deeper, Higher, and Nether, positioned like this: Upper ----- Nether ----- Deeper The Deeper and Higher realms are regarded as the 'Liferealms,' and the Nether is the 'Deathrealm.' When someone dies in Deeper, they are reborn in Higher and vice versa. Both realms view the other's gods as 'evil,' and the gods of the realms are always eager to increase their world's population. There are people akin to the Wheel of Time's Darkfriends in both liferealms who work to cause chaos and strife in their world, and are rewarded by the gods they worked for after they die. These poeple, called (**Need name**) are mercilessly hunted down by the priesthood of the realms. Only the inhabitants of the Nether are aware of the realms. The liferealmers each believe that the other is some sort of hell. All souls pass through the Nether between lives. Nether is the home of the Ascended, those people who have reached a certain level of power, Gods, the most powerful Ascended, demons, the usually evil inhabitants of the Nether realm, and angels, the beings responsible for keeping the demons controlled. There are five schools of magic. Summoning, which harnesses the powers of demons, Witchcraft, which also uses the powers of demons, but in a different manner, Sorcery, which, once again, is demon-powered, Prayer, which involves asking the Gods for assistance, and Wizardry, which utilizes the thirteen elements. Summoners in the living realms can call forth Demons from the Nether through the use of magic circles and force them to do their bidding. The Demons dislike this because their enslavement by the Summoners is far too similar to their cruel oppression by the Angels. As thus, the summoned Demon will take any chance to kill the Summoner and escape. As thus, the Summoner must be completely focused at all times and make sure that their warding circle, the only thing between them and the infinite anger of the summoned demon, remains unbroken at all times. The higher the degree of the demon is, the harder it is to control. A Summoner can enchant an object by forcing a Demon into the object and trapping it there. Possessing an enchanted object such as this enables the wielder to manipulate the powers of the demon inside. Using the demons abilities like this is referred to as sorcery. It is generally looked down apon by Priests (who regard anything to do with demons as evil) and Witches (who find the usage of demons in this manner unethical). Unlike Summoners and Sorcerers, Witches and Warlocks borrow the powers of demons. While it may sound similar, the demon willingly lends its power to the Witch or Warlock who requests it. Witches and Warlocks usually use the powers of one demon exclusively. This particular demon is referred to as a familiar. To actually use their familiar's powers, a bond of some kind (e.g friendship) must be formed between Witch/Warlock and familiar. The stronger this bond is, the more power the familiar can lend. Wizardry is a highly uncommon talent, usually only possesed by the inhabitants of the Nether and their offspring (Ascended DO have lives before Ascending, after all, and...intimate relationships between demons and humans are rare but not unheard of). Occasionally, however, a human may be born with the ability. It is the most powerful magic of them all, most often utilizing one of the four 'primal' elements (Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, otherwise known as Solid, Liquid, Gas and energy) in conjunction with another. Mortal Wizards can normally use only one element (meaning Fire users can only use combinations involving Fire), but some can use two, three or even four elements. Wizards that use one element are of the first degree, users of two are second degree etc. Fifth and higher degree wizards gain access to the 'higher' elements - Light, Shadow, Soul, Time, Matter, Life, Nexus, Dream and Space. The highest recorded degree of wizard to date is eleven, but users of seven degrees and higher are rare even among the Ascended. Demons are usually of the second degree, but they have access to one primal element and one higher element. Demons who can use only one element are called Lesser Daemon. Demons are quite varied in their appearance, often they are quite horrific to look at, resembling thjings such as dragons, corpses, spiders and more. All demons are a member of one (or more) of four 'tribes.' These four tribes are comprised of demons that have access to one specific primal element. Fire demons are calles Infernals, Air demons are named Efreet, Water demons are Undine and Earth demons are called . Demons of third degree gain access to another higher element and are called Daemon. Demon Lords are demons that can use more than one primal element. All Demon Lords are of at least the fourth degree. The most powerful Demon Lord is Lukin, and he is the familiar of Myusin: a Warlock of the Upper realm. Ascended are the most powerful of all the living beings (excepting Gods and certain Demons and angels) inhabiting the realms. Immortal and possesed of almost infinite power, they are born when a mortal Wizard learns, speaks, does or thinks a certain thing. It is unknown exactly WHAT this thing is, as it is differs from person to person. Anyway, once they learn/say/think/do whatever it is, they know. They increase in power by one to four degrees, they always seem to be faintly glowing with some kind of aura, and they gain the ability to travel between realms at will. Gods are the most powerful Ascended, and there is no God with a degree below eight. Godhood is a rather exclusive thing, and very, VERY few Ascended become Gods. Gods are generally linked with one element at a time, and there is only ever one God per element per Liferealm. Despite popular belief, Gods ARE mortal, but can usually only be killed by a highly skilled Ascended. There have been cases when a mortal has killed a God (One, actually: Rufus Godslayer, the aformentioned eleven degree wizard), but 6.25% of 'Godfrags' (as they're commonly known) have been by mortals, whereas 56.25% of Godfrags were preformed by Ascended, and 37.5% were made by Gods. In laymens terms, mortals - 1, Ascended - 9 and Gods - 6. When a God is 'fragged', the 'fragger' (in the case of mortals and Ascended) then takes over the freshly 'fragged' God's position, but if the God was killed by another God, the killer can give the vacant position to somebody of their choice. Often the choice is held back until the God is sober again, because the vast majority of these kills take place during drunken brawls (yes, Gods DO get drunk. And often, too. Takes the mind a). The 'Original' Gods are those Gods who have been around since before the world existed. Their origins are hazy, as they refuse to reveal any information about their births. They are thought to have been involved with the creation of the worlds. Often, the Gods are worshipped by the Priests who use their power. The purpose of this isn't quite clear, but most of the Gods enjoy the attention. The current listing of Gods is as follows: Upper _____ Fire: Runus (Otherwise known as The God Formerly Known as Rufus Godslayer) Water: Air: Ahuren Earth: Light: Shadow: Soul: Time: Atrophe Matter: Life: Nexus: Infinium Dream: Space: Casmos INFO: Not done yet... Deeper _____ Fire: Pheon (Bird, the eternal bird of flames) Water: Leviat (Beast, the endless serpent of the seas) Air: Rock (Bird, the giant lord of the skies) Earth: Behemon (Beast, the horned beast of the land) Light: Drazo (Bird) Shadow: Shal (Beast) Soul: Luni (Bird) Time: Chronu (Bird) Matter: Testament (Major God of realm, neutral) Life: Geyja (Bird) Nexus: Silza (Beast, twin of Selza) Dream: Ether (Beast) Space: Selza (Beast, twin of Silza) INFO: The Gods of Fire and Air are aligned, as are Water and Earth. Pheon and Rock, collectively known as the Bird Gods, are eternally making war with the Beast Gods, Leviat and Behemon. The Greater Elemental Gods have taken sides in this conflict (Alleigence written next to name), with the exception of Testament, who merely watches from his titanic throne, powerless to stop the fighting that is tearing apart his realm...

Hmm... I think the idea of having two normal worlds with a magical world sandwiched between them, and people who die in one normal world pass through the magical world to be reincarnated in the other world, and sufficiently powerful individuals escape this cycle of regeneration by moving to the middle world. That's a cool idea, kind of like a battery with streams of positive and negative current flowing through it. But I think all these angels and demons and summoners muck your original world up woth cliche fantasy elements. If you're going to have mages, they ought to be in the middle world where they can use the streams of souls being reincarnated as a power source. They could have ranks and use intercepted souls as slave labor more or less as you have described. The real question is then, what is the difference between the two normal worlds (please NOT that one is good and one evil) and why does this system exist?

No offense intended, just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the reply. I'm actually a very big fan of critique, as it allows you to truly improve on your ideas. I'll answer your questions as best I can.

Of course neither realm is good or evil. That's just plain stupid, and it's not very fun to write. Of course, both realms think that their good and the other's evil (while not really understanding anything about the universe they live in), and both realms have their fair share of evil (One country in Deeper is ruled by a rather...twisted dictator).

The Ascended don't really escape the cycle by moving to the Nether. They just go there because that's where all the cool stuff is.

I'm just gonna assume that the system was created and set in motion by the Elder Gods. For now, at least.

Anyway, the demons and angels are there because the main character is a Daemon mercenary called Devas, and the reason I've got mages is because one of the main motivations for Devas to Ascend and go psychotic (oops, said too much...) is because of the assasination of the highly powerful (tenth degree) mage he's protecting (who was killed by one of the Gods because she was viewed as a threat). Much of the magic is dropped in the sequel, though, which is set in modern times. (How does that work? I'm working on that...)

Mages use the energy around them to cast magic. You can effectively disable a mage that can use only Light magic by locking them in a very dark room. Usage of souls in magic, though? I never thought of that. Gives me an idea. Necromancy - manipulation of souls and I'll have soul consumption magic regarded as forbidden.

But I'll have a bad man use it. Then a good man use it too, so that the bad man is countered. Then it simply escalates from there.



I've got to work out a lot of kinks before I'm done with this. It's not my main project, and I've only recently begun on it. Keep the critique comin!

I really like the idea of dying in one world and being reincarnated in another world, after passing through the transitional world.
The gods getting drunk and brawling is pretty cool too, it makes them seem more like the greek gods than all powerful deities. Would things go wrong when a god died? Like would time get messed up, or would fire stop working? I can see it being pretty funny if a god wakes up with a hangover and has to try and sort out a replacement for the god he just murdered while things go to hell around him.

The magic system and the demons aren't as interesting. The part about wizards in particular was a bit dull. I can't see anyone being very interested in the numbers of elements people and demons can use. It's a bit arbitrary and not very interesting.

The name Godfrags is a bit silly. Are the exact percentages really required?

Setting up the gods in conflict in the last part also seems pretty arbitrary. Why are the gods fighting? Why is there a war tearing apart the realm?

Who will the characters be in the story, and what will they do?

Quote: Original post by GairenKarrandeas
Thanks for the reply. I'm actually a very big fan of critique, as it allows you to truly improve on your ideas. I'll answer your questions as best I can.

Of course neither realm is good or evil. That's just plain stupid, and it's not very fun to write. Of course, both realms think that their good and the other's evil (while not really understanding anything about the universe they live in), and both realms have their fair share of evil (One country in Deeper is ruled by a rather...twisted dictator).

The Ascended don't really escape the cycle by moving to the Nether. They just go there because that's where all the cool stuff is.

I'm just gonna assume that the system was created and set in motion by the Elder Gods. For now, at least.

Anyway, the demons and angels are there because the main character is a Daemon mercenary called Devas, and the reason I've got mages is because one of the main motivations for Devas to Ascend and go psychotic (oops, said too much...) is because of the assasination of the highly powerful (tenth degree) mage he's protecting (who was killed by one of the Gods because she was viewed as a threat). Much of the magic is dropped in the sequel, though, which is set in modern times. (How does that work? I'm working on that...)

Mages use the energy around them to cast magic. You can effectively disable a mage that can use only Light magic by locking them in a very dark room. Usage of souls in magic, though? I never thought of that. Gives me an idea. Necromancy - manipulation of souls and I'll have soul consumption magic regarded as forbidden.

But I'll have a bad man use it. Then a good man use it too, so that the bad man is countered. Then it simply escalates from there.



I've got to work out a lot of kinks before I'm done with this. It's not my main project, and I've only recently begun on it. Keep the critique comin!

Mako in Final Fantasy 7 could arguably be considered magic powered by a current of souls.

I generally believe in trying to give positive critiques, I just get particularly stirred up when I see something interesting drowning in a sea of uninteresting stuff. From your second post, I think you're ignoring the deep questions to focus on the boring normal stuff (greed- and ambition-motivated magical fighting, yuck); maybe I'm just not in your target audience though, I don't like violence, I like romance and comedy and constructive struggle, for example a struggle to found a new university or defy social prejudice.

But regardless of target audience, I think that a sound general principle of worldbuilding (as well as plotting) is that everything should be there for a reason. Your unique worldbuilding idea is interesting, but you need to use it to make a thematic point otherwise it's, well, pointless. A piece of strange worldbuilding which is there 'just because' is a copout. If everyone in your world lives in this unusual cycle then the explanation of the cycle ought to say something philosophical about the meaning of life.

I really like the idea of the two worlds with the one in between them. The thirteen elements seem well layed out. The only one that I don't understand is nexus.
The way you broke down witches, wizards, summoners, sorcery, and prayer is wuite interesting. I don't think I've heard anything like that before.

I also wanted to know if a god kills another god why must the fragger pass the gift to someone else. Could it be possible for him to take the energy him or herself? If not what would the effects be?

I'd like to see where this story is going, because it is quite interesting. I'd like to hear the names of some of the other characters as well.

As the others have said, the 3 plane concept is very nice. It gives you a good chance to present the subjective nature of "good and evil" and give more impact and personal context to your characters.

In fact, I like the mechanic of having 3 planes in general - it isnt something Ive really noticed being used before, but i can see how it could be used in a number of different ways to comment on various things. Personally, it gave me an idea for a cyclical system of 3 planes which could present themes of spiritual abandonment. Its a great way to give more depth to spirit and afterlife.


Your magic system also sounds interesting, I think. Although I agree with sunandshadow that the ideas themselves are fairly cliche fantasy mainstays, I think youve presented them in a way that is at least unusual and different enough from the norm that, at least for me, they are fairly intruiging.

I think you need to be cautious about your use of statistic, however. The percentages are the most obvious example of course - as has already been asked, are they really necessary? I think the numbers themselves work equally well but without the slightly jarring nature of the statistics in a descriptive piece. More importantly, though, Id say to be careful with your use of your "degrees of magic". I think they are an alright concept, but Id just advise you to be a bit wary about how often you actually refer to the numbers themselves. Constantly referring to everything by their degree leads to a feeling, at least for me, that they are something of a numeric statistic, a "power level" that you can measure and increase ("You got +1 degree!" :P). They are fine as flavour to be used for emphasis of a character's mastery and power, so long as they aren't overusde to the point where they become a statistic - just keep an eye on it and occasionally ask yourself if simply saying that a character is "very powerful", or "a pitifully inexperienced human" might be just as effective.


And finally, your angels and demons. These I do have to agree seem a bit generic. From the descriptions you've given they seem to be fairly stereotypical, in that demons are wrathful and quick to anger, while angels are protectors that stop the demons from spreading evil.
I think theres a lot of opportunity for you to link the conflict of angels and demons with the same ideas as your 2 life planes - good and evil being subjective, with each ideology having valid points. The angels could be portrayed as good intentioned yet their methods could be excessive and cruel, while the demons could be quick-tempered and violent but with a few saving graces and offsetting behaviours.
As you've said, "good and evil" can be boring, and it would be good to see more depth than that in the interactions. As an example, I could imagine an angel overseeing a violent demon, and keeping it under control with well intentioned but perhaps excessively brutal or cruel methods, while the demon does possess a violent side but also occassionally sohws a caring impulse to protect a vulnerable weaker animal.

Just my 2 cents :)

The fragger must pass the godhood on because if he doesn't then he'd explode. Not because of energy overload or anything, but rather because god-nesses repel each other, like two north poles of magnets.

Demons and Angels aren't good or evil. They just generally hate each other, with one or two exceptions.

Magic degree is somewhat like the '*insert number* house' of wizards that I see in many books these days. It's just with 'degree' instead of 'house'. I'll soon explain my ideal battle system for the game which will clear up a lot but I don't have a lot of time left.

I also thought up a decent reason for the 'soul system' - The Creator. Here's a little *cough cough* history lesson for ya'll. The Creator is an omnipotent, onmiscient and immortal being created alongside the universe thanks to a long series of rather improbable events. After a few millenia it (being both the only one of it's kind and spontaneously it has no need of gender) begins to get ronrey (*coughcough*) and decides to use it's power to create some company.

So it picks a planet at random, and creates life on it.

Using a meteor.

After he's done that, it watches life grow somewhat like one watches a tank of sea-monkeys: finding them cute but also kinda wishing they were bigger and sentient. And immortal, because it's just heartbreaking to watch them all die off. So it decides to create somethings that he can communicate with. It makes them invisible, immortal and wise. It calls them souls, and makes a whole crapload of them.

Much, much later, the Creator notices that his population of souls has diminished somewhat. He looks around a bit and finds that they have taken residence in several creatures. Twenty-five creatures, to be exact. It notices that the creatures have become immortal and far more intelligent than the other animals, and that they have gained super powers. As it's watching, he observes a baby thingamajig (despite being omniscient, he doesn't have much of an imagination. It's why it made it's living things create themselves via evolution.) being born, and sees the baby absorb a nearby soul into it's body. The Creator is horrified, because it realized that if this went on, and if the immortal creatures kept making babies, then there would be too much life and that predators would quickly become extinct due to the immortality of prey.

It thought for a while, and eventually came up with a solution. It would create two new worlds in alternate dimensions, and then attatch a small strand from every one of the souls to it's original world. Then it moved half the lifeforms (save the 26 immortal thingies, which it named Gods. BTW, the souls of the Gods eventually settled in their hosts and changed into a kind of super energy ball, making the Gods...well, Gods) to one planet, which it named Upper, and then it moved the rest to the other, which it called Deeper. He charged the Gods with the task of wtching over the two planets.

Then the Creator watched. It's plan was to force all the souls to constantly swing between the two worlds like some sort of uberized elastic band. For the most part, everything went to plan, and things that had absorbed souls eventually died when the body's grip on the soul failed. But some souls missed the other planet entirely and went flying into space (while going "wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"). The Creator decided to move some of the 'souled' creatures to the Netherealm (what he named his original world) to tend to the souls. The creatures he took from the Upper realm were winged humanoids and called themselves Angels, while the creatures from Deeper were greatly varied in appearance, growing into different shapes depending on how they were raised. These being called themselves Demons. The Creator introduced the two races, told them their job and how to do it, gave them a few words of encouragement then buggered off to who-knows-where.

The Angels and the Demons instantly hated each other.

Eventually the Demons and the Angels had a massive and near-apocalyptic war. The Gods intervened and aided the Angels to defeat the Demons, and then banished the Demons to the core of the netherworld, assigning the Angels to watch over them and stop them from starting another war, and gave the most worthy of them new powers. Then they turned their minds to other, more pressing issues. Like trying get the most intelligent of 'souled' creatures to invent the wheel.

The Angels soon began to misuse their power over their ancient enemies. The Demons pretty much became slaves to the Angels, and were almost constantly abused and humiliated by their 'saintly' overlords. The blessed Angels, now called Arcangels, easily and forcefully destroyed any trace of rebellion.

At this point the things the Gods were helping on the path to greatness (guess who these guys are? Yes! Humans!) achieved dominance in both realms, and progressed to something that resembled modern society. The Angels and Demons both regarded the mortals as inferior ond ignored them.

Eventually a great Daemon named Lukin was born. Lukin was possessed of magic powers unheard of among Demonkind.

Lukin quickly united the unruly Demons under his rule, and organised them all into various tribes according to magical ability. He was a highly skilled ruler The youthful Lukin, not even 40 years old at the time, was a warrior of unparralleled(sp?) skill, defeating the Arcangels in combat one by one. The Angels grew fearful that the atrocities that they had visited apon the Demons would be returned in kind.

The Angels leader, the six-winged Seraph, turned to the Gods for aid. The Gods, however, were disgusted by the treatment of the Demons and ignored the Angels. The Seraph became desperate. Lukin came ever closer to the surface of the Netherealm, and the Angels were being slaughtered.

It was at this point that the Seraph was approached by a wingless woman, who offered her aid against the demons. The Seraph laughed at her, saying that he didn't need the assistance of a mere morta-

The - was where he realized that there was a mortal woman in his office.

He was shocked. How could any mortal reach the Nether? *insert some random crap here*

Eventually, the angels put down the Demonic rebellion with the aid of the woman - who was the first Ascended - who had learned from the Creator () the arts of Summoning and Sorcery and gave this knowledge to the mortals of both realms and then made her home on the lush plains of the Netherealm. The Demons were soon being summoned away to the Liferealms left right and center, and soon there wasn't many left to fight.

Lukin was displeased. He had been defeated by the Angels and his people were now enslaved by both Angels and mortals. He had failed his people. He sat in his empty castle for ten years, drowning in the blackest depths of dispair. The woman eventually heard of Lukin's plight and set off for the fire-lit caves of the Demons, for she had a good heart and was never able to stomach the suffering of others.

She met the depressed Lukin and told him to seek the aid of mortals, and gave Lukin a book. She told him to seek the mortal who he thought to be the most worthy of all and give the book to that person. So Lukin went to the upper realm and searched. Lukin found it easy to blend into the mortal societies as Lukin's form was very similar to that of the mortals. Eventually he met a man named Myusin. Lukin instantly took a liking to Myusin and gave him the book.

The book was a manual detailing the intricacies of Witchcraft.

So some more stuff happened, many many years pass, the Ascended grew in numbers, some Gods are killed by the Ascended, who take the slain Gods soul and absorb it, becoming Gods themselves, then taking a liking to alcohol, blah blah blah. Soon we get to where the story begins.








I'll do a plot outline soon.